Welcome. I love snooping msfn for info on my win98 builds.

Nice rigs you have there! Very impressive that you have it all working with all 3 os'es.

I need to ask... how are you getting a pci e video card to work in win98?

This is a nice rig indeed. Too bad Windows 98 doesn't work with newer video cards.

Btw is the PSU on the second build really meant to be like that? With the fan exhauting air from the case instead of using outside air to cool itself?

retrofanatic, PCIe is software-compatible with good old PCI - so Windows 98 doesn't care. And Geforce 7xx0 cards are very similar to 6xx0 ones, so you can get the latest Windows 98 drivers and mod the INF files

>>retrofanatic: Welcome. I love snooping msfn for info on my win98 builds.
>>retrofanatic: Nice rigs you have there! Very impressive that you have it all working with all 3 os'es.

>>alexanrs: This is a nice rig indeed.

Thank you for the kind welcome!

>>>>retrofanatic: I need to ask... how are you getting a pci e video card to work in win98?
>>[...] Geforce 7xx0 cards are very similar to 6xx0 ones, so you can get the latest Windows 98 drivers and mod the INF files

True, that is the reason the 7xxx can be used with the driver originally meant for the 6xxx.
The 8xxx and newer are truly a new generation, and so this trick does not work on them any more.
The similarity of the 6xxx and the 7xxx can be seen in the fact, that they are put into the W7/8/10-legacy driver 309.08 by NVidia, while the 5xxx are dropped entirely, and the 8xxx is still in more recent drivers.

>>alexanrs: PCIe is software-compatible with good old PCI - so Windows 98 doesn't care.

I may be wrong, but i read, that very often, on boards with PCIe-1x-slots, PCI is connected via a PCIe-PCI-bridge.
The true wonder is not the GPU, but the NICs: They have a native driver.
Explanation: The company producing the NICs programmed those native drivers, including the access to PCIe. As simple as that.

With the 6xxx and 7xxx cards, i made an experiment on the 4coreDual:
I installed an AGP-card, powered down the PC, put in exactly the same GPU in PCIe-variant, powered it up, and it came up working without even installing anything.
I then looked it up in the system-overview: Now the card itself was - and that's where the magic happens - showing an AGP to PCIe-bridge.
(The 4coreDual has an PCIe-to-AGP-bridge, which is not important in this case, but explains, why you can only use GPUs in that particular PCIe-slot).
So, the reason why this works with the 7xxx and 6xxx series is, that the PCIe-variants have an additional (very fast) AGP-to-PCIe-bridge onboard, which is transparent (aka invisible) to the driver.
In other words: From the point of view of W98SE, they are still AGP-cards. And that's the truth somehow, actually.

For all of this: I'm not GPU-scientist, i only read this, and may have gotten this wrong. In that case, forgive my ranting... 😀

A similar trick has been used later on many more times to produce AGP-cards from PCIe-types (i.e. AMD HD 3850), albeit they did not have a driver for W98SE in the first place, so for us legacy-gamers, this knowledge is of no use... 🙁

>>retrofanatic: Too bad Windows 98 doesn't work with newer video cards.

True enough.

>>alexanrs: Btw is the PSU on the second build really meant to be like that? With the fan exhauting air from the case instead of using outside air to cool itself?

Yes, that's by the instruction. This way the (temperature-controlled) vent is meant to help bringing in cool air when the rig draws more power (instead of drawing out when placed at the top).
As this rig barely draws 200W in furmark, the vent never starts. That's why i don't really know if that makes sense... and because of this it is effectively a passive PSU for me... 😉
If i ever did not trust it, i coud build in this PSU the other way round, and reverse the vent via a switch at the backside of the PSU.

Cheers,
Ragnar G.D.

ragnar-gd wrote:

>>alexanrs: PCIe is software-compatible with good old PCI - so Windows 98 doesn't care. […]
Show full quote

>>alexanrs: PCIe is software-compatible with good old PCI - so Windows 98 doesn't care.

I may be wrong, but i read, that very often, on boards with PCIe-1x-slots, PCI is connected via a PCIe-PCI-bridge.
The true wonder is not the GPU, but the NICs: They have a native driver.
Explanation: The company producing the NICs programmed those native drivers, including the access to PCIe. As simple as that.

With the 6xxx and 7xxx cards, i made an experiment on the 4coreDual:
I installed an AGP-card, powered down the PC, put in exactly the same GPU in PCIe-variant, powered it up, and it came up working without even installing anything.
I then looked it up in the system-overview: Now the card itself was - and that's where the magic happens - showing an AGP to PCIe-bridge.
(The 4coreDual has an PCIe-to-AGP-bridge, which is not important in this case, but explains, why you can only use GPUs in that particular PCIe-slot).
So, the reason why this works with the 7xxx and 6xxx series is, that the PCIe-variants have an additional (very fast) AGP-to-PCIe-bridge onboard, which is transparent (aka invisible) to the driver.
In other words: From the point of view of W98SE, they are still AGP-cards. And that's the truth somehow, actually.

For all of this: I'm not GPU-scientist, i only read this, and may have gotten this wrong. In that case, forgive my ranting... 😀

A similar trick has been used later on many more times to produce AGP-cards from PCIe-types (i.e. AMD HD 3850), albeit they did not have a driver for W98SE in the first place, so for us legacy-gamers, this knowledge is of no use... 🙁

What I meant by that is that Windows 98 itself can see, enumerate and configure PCIe devices normally, because PCIe is backwards compatible with PCI at the software level. So if you are to write a driver for a PCIe device, you can just pretend it is regular PCI. Advanced features of the PCIe bus can't be used that way, but you can communicate with the hardware just fine.

Also, with NVidia cards the AGP and PCIe variants of the same card even share the same Device-ID, so Windows 98 can't see the difference. In fact, they are the exact same chip, but one the variants use a bridge chip. GeForce 6 series have both native AGP chips and native PCIe ones, but GeForce 7 is PCIe only, and all AGP cards are bridged.

>>alexanrs: What I meant by that [...] cards are bridged.
I didn't know all that - It already is worth being here. Thank you!