VOGONS


First post, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Hello everyone,

I'm in the need of a fast system for the late DOS games and also want to play the early 3dfx and OpenGL games and decided to build a Pentium Pro system with a triple-boot Menu (DOS / Win98SE / WinNT 4.0) from scratch.

Although this CPU has no 32/16-Bit fallback feature like its sucsessor the Pentium II, it's still a very fast CPU for DOS that has quite a few benefits for the late, demanding SVGA DOS games like an ultra strong FPU, insane speed of the cached memory due to the worlds first x86 CPU with on-DIE and also full speed L2 cache.

I love the platform because the Pentium Pro was such a milestone. It was Intels first ever dedicated server CPU and a great forerunner of a caching concept which is common today. It's also a system you don't see every day. The CPU was unbelievable expensive when released, I think it was more than 5000 Deutsche Mark for just the CPU (~2500 Euro) so it was out of range for most home users.

ppro_scratch_s.jpg

Larger 2000px version available here: http://www.amoretro.de/ppro_scratch.jpg
Much more pictures still to come. This is a raw version of my preselected hardware I want to use for this project.

The CPU and the Mobo:

Recently I traded a K6plus CPU/Mobo/VGA bundle for a Pentium Pro CPU (166MHz, 512KB) with a ugly and noisy Heatsink/Fan combo on a QDI Commander III Board, a AT Board which looks nice and works like a charm and more important: It has PS/2 header and USB headers as well. I replaced the bad heatsink with a good passive heatsink of a Dell Dimension PPro and attached a fluid bearing fan. Board and CPU are from 1996.

pentium_pro_iso_s.jpg
The picture shows the originally installed Pentium Pro 166MHz CPU.

So the Commander III will be the Mobo. I will keep the 166MHz in my collection or for trade and take a Pentium Pro 200MHz for the system, maybe overclocked to 233MHz. The Board supports multiplicators from 2 up to 4 and voltages from 2,0V up to 3,5V without the need of an additional VRM. Quite nice IMO. I want to use the system with 128MB of EDO or if available BEDO (burst EDO)

The graphics card:

I made a preselection of a few cards, however I don't know yet if I will go for authentic timeline of just for the maximum possible speed. Anyways, these are the candidates:

- Tseng Labs ET6000, 4.5MB MDRAM
- nVidia Riva128, 4MB SGRAM
- 3dfx Voodoo Banshee, 16MB SDRAM
- 3dfx Voodoo 3 2000, 16MB SDRAM
- nVidia RivaTNT, 16MB SDRAM

In addition of these there will be either a Voodoo I or a Voodoo II card inside to maintain full compatibility for the critical DOS-only Glide games. Which card would you suggest and why?

All cards are excellent performers under DOS. No doubt. All cards but the Tseng have the VBE 3.0 extensions. Under Windows the Tseng is the less advanced card. But it still has a nice VGA signal quality. The Tseng also is the most authentic choice because it's from 1996.

The Riva128 is maybe my favourite. It's from 1997, fast under DOS and Windows. Supports 3D, good alrounder.

The Banshee card from 1998 as well as the Voodoo III and the TNT from 1999 are a bit on the "too modern" side but of course they are excellent performers and the system would still be within 3 years (Mobo 1996 - VGA 1999). Under W98SE and NT4.0 SP6 the system would benefit the most if I use either the Voodoo III or the TNT.

Other PCI VGA cards are not available at the moment.

The sound card:

Well, when it comes to the "best" sound card we geeks know that there is none. It always depends. There are many good cards and nearly every card has its advantages and drawbacks.

I decided to go with a 2 card solution.

- Gravis UltraSound MAX
- Primax Altrasound / Soundstorm GUS Clone + Mixer

Well it doesn't make a difference in sound quality. Both cards sound equal. But I'm not sure which card is able to disable as much IRQ as possible. Does the Crystal chip on the GUS Max need an IRQ? If yes, I'd go with the Primax.

Why GUS? Because of the leap in sound quality in games like "Epic Pinball" and where MOD-sound comes into play. And of course - for demos!

The second card is for SoundBlaster Pro and General Midi. I made a preselection of these cards:

- Terratec Maestro 32/96 with onboard 4MB Roland Sound Canvas + 4MB Yamaha Daughterboard
- Oksori WS32 with attached 4MB Roland Sound Canvas

Hmm.. I tend to choose the Maestro because it is a card that is still great under Windows. It also has 2 independent MPU401 interfaces so I can choose the internal Roland or the attached Yamaha module. The Crystal codec is very quiet and has excellent SB Pro compatibility.
The Oksori on the other hand has a programmable effects processor to the Roland Sound Canvas can be modified to have a bit more "punch". But on the oher hand I think it's unable a find drivers for Windows NT and in addition to this it's a kind of nightmare to install the drivers because the Windows installer is in korean, needs DOS init first and so on. I also thought about the Terratec EWS64 but I don't want to have a RAM-based soundfont that has to load every time I boot the machine.

The rest:

Ok, I think a 6,4GB harddisk is sufficient for what I want to do with the system. But if now there are other disks available.
The system will have an optical drive, of course. I still don't know if I should go CD-ROM only because of the timeline (1996) or should go for a DVD-ROM from 1998 because it is so much useful. The system will also have a NIC, namely a PCI based 3COM Etherlink XL or something like this. A floppy will also be there.

The case:

I don't really have a better case but I think it's not such a bad choice. It's just not original.
I'm talking about a Packard Bell "Professional" AT case that can be used as deskop or tower. It's from a 1995 486 PCI system. The drivebay is also 90 degrees turnable so the drives can always be in horizontal position if you want.

I would be happy to read some comments, thoughts, suggestions or critics.

Thank you in advance
Fabian

Last edited by FGB on 2012-07-09, 20:19. Edited 2 times in total.

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 1 of 29, by sprcorreia

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I've built a system not too long almost within the same specs. I tried to keep everything within the same year. I have:

Intel ATX motherboard
Intel Pentium Pro 200
Kingston 128MB EDO RAM
STB Lightspeed 128 - ET6000
Orchid Righteus 3D
AWE64 Gold 28MB
MQX-32M with Roland MT-32 and SC-155

It's quite nice for a 1996 machine, and very good for DOS.

Reply 2 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Please don't comment on this. I installed DOS . The system froze at 76%. The board is dead since then. 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 3 of 29, by swaaye

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I'm a bit of a PPro fan too. Those machines were really exciting in their time. I haven't run it for awhile but I have a Intel VS440FX board with 128MB EDO. I also have a collection of PPro CPUs, with all of the cache size variations.

Reply 4 of 29, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
FGB wrote:

Please don't comment on this. I installed DOS . The system froze at 76%. The board is dead since then. :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

Time for a new board?

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 6 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
RacoonRider wrote:

It had only FX chipset anyway. I'm no expert in PPros, but I think something HX-based would be ultimate. Don't feel bad, shit happens.

IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So there is no IntelHX (Triton II) for Socket 8.

Well I still feel bad. At least I know the reason. It was the power supply. It just sent a kind of voltage spike and killed the board. Damn it!

It was my only Socket 8 board so this is even more frustrating.

Anyone with a new mobo for me? 😕

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 7 of 29, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

How do you know it was a voltage surge?

FGB wrote:

Anyone with a new mobo for me? :confused:

No, but this would be a good opportunity to see if RIVA TNT Windows drivers work on a SiS-based 486.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 8 of 29, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
FGB wrote:
IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So ther […]
Show full quote
RacoonRider wrote:

It had only FX chipset anyway. I'm no expert in PPros, but I think something HX-based would be ultimate. Don't feel bad, shit happens.

IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So there is no IntelHX (Triton II) for Socket 8.

Well I still feel bad. At least I know the reason. It was the power supply. It just sent a kind of voltage spike and killed the board. Damn it!

It was my only Socket 8 board so this is even more frustrating.

Anyone with a new mobo for me? 😕

I somewhat distrust my old AT PSU's. I'd rather use a newer tested ATX one with an adapter.
I just haven't gotten around to building an AT rig the past few months as my time is eaten by other activities (like my "new" triple-core rig I built cheaply, but with good parts).

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 9 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
feipoa wrote:

How do you know it was a voltage surge?

FGB wrote:

Anyone with a new mobo for me? 😕

No, but this would be a good opportunity to see if RIVA TNT Windows drivers work on a SiS-based 486.

by measuring the PSU after it killed another board later on the same day. it had peaks of 30volts on the 12volt rail 😢

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 10 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Tetrium wrote:
FGB wrote:
IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So ther […]
Show full quote
RacoonRider wrote:

It had only FX chipset anyway. I'm no expert in PPros, but I think something HX-based would be ultimate. Don't feel bad, shit happens.

IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So there is no IntelHX (Triton II) for Socket 8.

Well I still feel bad. At least I know the reason. It was the power supply. It just sent a kind of voltage spike and killed the board. Damn it!

It was my only Socket 8 board so this is even more frustrating.

Anyone with a new mobo for me? 😕

I somewhat distrust my old AT PSU's. I'd rather use a newer tested ATX one with an adapter.
I just haven't gotten around to building an AT rig the past few months as my time is eaten by other activities (like my "new" triple-core rig I built cheaply, but with good parts).

Distrusting them is the right way. As my case demonstrates: It can always happen. I built and still build many retro rigs but this never happened before. 🙁 😖 😳 😢

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 11 of 29, by gerwin

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Sorry about the loss...

Last week I had I fright when I measured my PSU 12V output to be over 16V!

But it appeared the PSU was fine, the multimeter battery had run very low, causing these false readings. It got me fooled.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 12 of 29, by feipoa

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
FGB wrote:

by measuring the PSU after it killed another board later on the same day. it had peaks of 30volts on the 12volt rail :depressed:

Wow, that seems way over the top! I'm surprised these motherboards don't have any kind of over voltage, over current protection built-in, whereby they just don't power up for a voltage over a threshold, say +-1.0 V. Did you try your two dead motherboards with a known working PSU to confirm that they are in fact blown?

An oscilliscope will provide a bit more information than a multi-meter for tests like this. The multi-meter does some averaging of the voltage over some sample period, so it won't show you spikes shorter than a certain duration. Regardless, 30 Vdc on the mutli-meter is unacceptable.

Plan your life wisely, you'll be dead before you know it.

Reply 13 of 29, by RacoonRider

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
FGB wrote:

IntelFX was THE chipset for Socket 8. It has nothing to do with the IntelFX (Triton) for Socket 7, you are referring to. So there is no IntelHX (Triton II) for Socket 8.

Sorry, my bad

Reply 14 of 29, by ncmark

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

It's kind of scary that could happen. I am running some "marginal" power supplies in a couple of computers and have thought about replacing them even though they aren't causing problems (yet).

Reply 16 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Thank you all for your condolences. Now, more than a year later, I'm about to revive this topic.

I have "new" hardware available to build a decent PPro System. One ASUS AT-Motherboard and one Siemens Scenic Pro Workstation System. I like both and don't know yet which one to keep.

The system will be setup to play DOS games from 1993 - ~1997/8 and Windows 95 games, early 3Dfx stuff and so on.

I'll add more information later, but I think, I'll throw the following hardware inside the systems:

For DOS and 2D Windows:

- Matrox Millenium II graphics card
or
- Tseng ET6000 card
or
- ELSA Gloria (ViRGE for DOS, Glint 3D 8MB onboard)
or
- Riva (128/TNT/TNT2)
or
- Voodoo 3 3000

For accelerated 3D in DOS / Windows:

- Voodoo 2 card
and
- NEC PowerVR 2 card

For decent sound:

- Turtle Beach Tropez Plus
with:
- onboard 4MB VoiceCrystal Soundfont
- external Roland SC55
- external Yamaha MU80

- Gravis Ultrasound PnP

Feel free to comment and suggest other hardware.
That's it for now.

Cheers,
Fabian

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 17 of 29, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

I always use modern ATX power supplies with ATX > AT adapters because I don't trust these old PSUs one bit.

My website with reviews, demos, drivers, tutorials and more...
My YouTube channel

Reply 18 of 29, by FGB

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Full ack. This is a wise descision and my recommendation if someone asks me about a PSU for an AT board.
I learned it the hard way, but that's history now 😀

Last edited by FGB on 2014-01-08, 22:29. Edited 1 time in total.

www.AmoRetro.de Visit my huge hardware gallery with many historic items from 16MHz 286 to 1000MHz Slot A. Includes more than 80 soundcards and a growing Wavetable Recording section with more than 300 recordings.

Reply 19 of 29, by TELVM

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
feipoa wrote:

... I'm surprised these motherboards don't have any kind of over voltage, over current protection built-in, whereby they just don't power up for a voltage over a threshold, say +-1.0 V ...

Beware that sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.

Let the air flow!