VOGONS


First post, by Mr_Alert

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Found a whole bunch of old computer parts in the garage when moving. Most of it is from when my father was building and selling computers on his own in addition to his normal job. Most of the stuff is 486-class, but there's some Pentium stuff there too. I completed a 486 system that was already partially built, but I was wondering if any of the other parts would be an improvement. Also, what would be the...least valuable...system I could build to test everything, in case something blows up? Or maybe just general tips for keeping anything from blowing up while testing this stuff?

Here's all the stuff I got: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nzqgI … dit?usp=sharing

And here's what the 486 system has right now:

Freetech 486F39X, SiS 85C471 chipset
Intel i486DX2-66
16MB parity RAM in 4 30-pin SIMMs
Tekram DC-680CD caching disk controller with 4MB RAM
Diamond Stealth Pro VLB VGA card with 2MB VRAM
Sound Blaster 16 WavEffects (CT4170) (There's at least one game that doesn't like the fact that this card uses one of the 8-bit DMA channels for 16-bit sound: Clyde's Revenge)
SMC EtherCard PLUS Elite16T network card

I also want to build something with the Juko Super Turbo board (I'm pretty sure it came from my first computer), but I'll have to get practically everything elsewhere, including the BIOS.

Reply 1 of 14, by sunaiac

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The video card could be changed for something better and a DX4 could be interesting.
The rest is awesome, especially the tekram. I have the non-CD version, I love it.

But you don't need to change anything, it's just bonus. Config is good as it is.

R9 3900X/X470 Taichi/32GB 3600CL15/5700XT AE/Marantz PM7005
i7 980X/R9 290X/X-Fi titanium | FX-57/X1950XTX/Audigy 2ZS
Athlon 1000T Slot A/GeForce 3/AWE64G | K5 PR 200/ET6000/AWE32
Ppro 200 1M/Voodoo 3 2000/AWE 32 | iDX4 100/S3 864 VLB/SB16

Reply 2 of 14, by chinny22

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That just looks like a good couple of months worth of fun!
if you have the time and space I would build up systems and test. You have a fair bit of VLB stuff which is fun to play with, and Video cards sell for a slight premium simply cause they are VLB, although none are highly desirable.
If something going to blow, it'll blow. You can use a new power supply if you want to play is safe, I like to live on the edge and just turn the power supply on by itself and if it doesn't blow its "passed" I haven't killed anything yet.

You have any games in mind for the 486? DX2/66 is a pretty good place to start, DX4 or 586 may be bit more fun. Bit more ram maybe depending on what you want to play but nothing wrong with 8MB either.

if you think the Juko is from your first PC then keep it, even if it take you the next 50 years to get it up and running if at all. Everyone regrets getting rid of their 1st PC.

Don't rush to offload stuff, its only going to get rarer. Your cases are awesome and hard to find. I ditched a bunch of stuff in 2010 including a working 286 a few AT cases and Asus BX motherboard with its original slocket adaptor JUST before I got back into old PC's and found out there is actually a demand for this stuff!

Reply 3 of 14, by darksheer

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If you're not interested in fps or you don't want to go as far as Hexen or DUKE3D just leave it like that, a DX2 66 should be enough up to Dark Forces.

If you have fast L2 cache and 60 NS ram and you don't mind playing around with WS/TIMMINGS/BIOS Optimizations, putting the BUS from 33 Mhz to 40 should get this computer as fast as a DX4 100 system (considering the caching disk controller and the vlb video card it should run fps of the era relatively fast with consistent framerate).

If not, as sunaiac said just put an Overdrive ODPR DX4 100 on it if you find one cheap (MB working with 30 pins simm having a voltage regulator allowing 3.3V instead of 5V are quite rare, most of then have the jumpers settings on the pcb but not the components). If you're lucky just bought an ordinary DX4 100 (not the WB version if your motherboard doesn't officialy support it, because the system wouldn't boot otherwise) set the voltage to 3.3 V and you're set.

DOOM1&2/HERETIC/HEXEN/DUKE3D/POWESLAVE/SHADOW WARRIOR/... and many more should really be enjoyable with it.
Latest DOS games likes BLOOD or Redneck Rampage on the other hand will still not be really playable because they were aimed to pentium systems.

Reply 4 of 14, by sunaiac

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A write back DX4 will actually work just fine in a write through motherboard, and behave like any WT DX4.

R9 3900X/X470 Taichi/32GB 3600CL15/5700XT AE/Marantz PM7005
i7 980X/R9 290X/X-Fi titanium | FX-57/X1950XTX/Audigy 2ZS
Athlon 1000T Slot A/GeForce 3/AWE64G | K5 PR 200/ET6000/AWE32
Ppro 200 1M/Voodoo 3 2000/AWE 32 | iDX4 100/S3 864 VLB/SB16

Reply 5 of 14, by darksheer

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sunaiac wrote:

A write back DX4 will actually work just fine in a write through motherboard, and behave like any WT DX4.

I was not remembering right, WB/WT sure can cause issues but the major one seems to be the L1 cache size because with some chipsets even Overdrive cpu's will not work too.
Considering that his motherboard use 30 pins simms it could be : an earlier socket 3 MB, a LIF socket 1 or a zif socket 2.
If OP have a motherboard older than a socket 3 and the cpu is WB it should not work, and even if the cpu is WT only, L1 cache size can cause trouble
(will hang at post or don't boot at all, I know because I tried it 2 years ago)...
If the chipset support WB and as a result the MB may be a socket 3(altrough the cpu will get 5 V instead of 3.3 if no voltage regulator 😵) it should work...
(OK in that case because socket 3 should natively support DX4)

The moral is : if his MB is not socket 3 and he want better speed => just set the bus to 40 Mhz and tweak BIOS to get a fast and reliable o/c.
If it's socket 3 and no voltage regulator => DX4 overdrive ODP or ODPR should be fine.
If it's socket 3 and voltage regulator => DX4 WB/WT should be fine.

A link to a thread here about Overdrives/DX4 L1 cache issues (it should way more threads talking about that here but that the first i bumped across) :
486DX4 Overdrive no boot

Maybe my memory don't serve me right, so, sorry in advance if I am wrong or I'm talking sh*t but I don't have the will to put a 3.3V WB cpu on one of my packed 5V lif MB's just to test it 🤣
(because LIF sockets are just little evil things that force you to use a flat head screwdriver to extract cpu's and top of that, i'm not a big fan or overvolting) 😒

Reply 6 of 14, by sunaiac

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Intel DX4 on a 5V MB is a no go, you're sure to fry the chip (fryed one myself). 4V is fine on the other hand.
AMD usually holds better, as I learned by mistake 😁 but will artefact pretty quickly (at least for the two I ran by error at 5V), couldn't finish the doom and quake parts of phil's benchmark)

So yeah, ODR/ODPR is the way to go, it will work with any socket 3 MB.

As for a DX2 Intel at 80MHz, I've been pretty unlucky with mine, it's far from given. (tested 3 different DX66, none behaved well)
Even with some active cooling, they crashed badly on phil's benchmark suite.

R9 3900X/X470 Taichi/32GB 3600CL15/5700XT AE/Marantz PM7005
i7 980X/R9 290X/X-Fi titanium | FX-57/X1950XTX/Audigy 2ZS
Athlon 1000T Slot A/GeForce 3/AWE64G | K5 PR 200/ET6000/AWE32
Ppro 200 1M/Voodoo 3 2000/AWE 32 | iDX4 100/S3 864 VLB/SB16

Reply 7 of 14, by Mr_Alert

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I decided to move the system to the larger mid tower case. I had a hard time trying to remove the motherboard from the original mini tower case until I discovered that half of the bottom can be unscrewed:
IMG_20150421_231252_scaled.jpg

Once I got most of the system in the new case (holy crap, VLB cards are hard to insert), I decided to test the floppy drives to make sure they still worked (especially the 3 1/2" one since it's sideways in that case.) The closest bootable disk I had on hand was the MS-DOS 6.22 Setup disk, and I ended up finding funny some grammar:
IMG_20150422_050709_scaled.jpg

And here's the end result:
IMG_20150422_104621_scaled.jpg

sunaiac wrote:

The video card could be changed for something better and a DX4 could be interesting.

What kind of video card did you have in mind?

sunaiac wrote:

The rest is awesome, especially the tekram. I have the non-CD version, I love it.

Which non-CD version? I also have a DC-680T, but there are apparently also the DC-680 and DC-680C. No idea what the differences are between them though.

chinny22 wrote:

if you think the Juko is from your first PC then keep it, even if it take you the next 50 years to get it up and running if at all. Everyone regrets getting rid of their 1st PC.

Oh, I definitely intend to keep it.

darksheer wrote:

If you have fast L2 cache and 60 NS ram and you don't mind playing around with WS/TIMMINGS/BIOS Optimizations, putting the BUS from 33 Mhz to 40 should get this computer as fast as a DX4 100 system (considering the caching disk controller and the vlb video card it should run fps of the era relatively fast with consistent framerate).

When moving the system to a new case, I took a closer look at what's in there (and took pictures), and I do indeed have 60ns RAM in there. How fast an L2 cache are you talking, though? The cache in there right now is 15ns. I have 12ns SRAM chips as well, but only 4 of them, so I could only get half the cache and that doesn't even include the tag RAM. Otherwise, the processor seems to run cool enough, and I have active cooling on it, so I might as well give it a shot.

darksheer wrote:

If not, as sunaiac said just put an Overdrive ODPR DX4 100 on it if you find one cheap (MB working with 30 pins simm having a voltage regulator allowing 3.3V instead of 5V are quite rare, most of then have the jumpers settings on the pcb but not the components). If you're lucky just bought an ordinary DX4 100 (not the WB version if your motherboard doesn't officialy support it, because the system wouldn't boot otherwise) set the voltage to 3.3 V and you're set.

The motherboard actually has both 30-pin and 72-pin SIMM slots. Comparing the motherboard manual with the chipset documentation, it seems to treat the 4 30-pin SIMM slots as if it were a single 72-pin one, which would make sense, seeing as the former have 8-bit data busses, and the latter has a 32-bit one. There's also a version of the motherboard that can take 3.3V processors, but mine can't.

darksheer wrote:

Considering that his motherboard use 30 pins simms it could be : an earlier socket 3 MB, a LIF socket 1 or a zif socket 2.

Strangely enough, it appears to be an LIF Socket 2.

Reply 8 of 14, by sunaiac

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Mr_Alert wrote:
sunaiac wrote:

The video card could be changed for something better and a DX4 could be interesting.

What kind of video card did you have in mind?

The usual suspects : ET4000/W32*, S3 Vision 864 o 968 😀

Mr_Alert wrote:
sunaiac wrote:

The rest is awesome, especially the tekram. I have the non-CD version, I love it.

Which non-CD version? I also have a DC-680T, but there are apparently also the DC-680 and DC-680C. No idea what the differences are between them though.

I have the 680T with 4mb 😀

R9 3900X/X470 Taichi/32GB 3600CL15/5700XT AE/Marantz PM7005
i7 980X/R9 290X/X-Fi titanium | FX-57/X1950XTX/Audigy 2ZS
Athlon 1000T Slot A/GeForce 3/AWE64G | K5 PR 200/ET6000/AWE32
Ppro 200 1M/Voodoo 3 2000/AWE 32 | iDX4 100/S3 864 VLB/SB16

Reply 9 of 14, by darksheer

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"The motherboard actually has both 30-pin and 72-pin SIMM slots. Strangely enough, it appears to be an LIF Socket 2" Yeah that would be pretty odd 🤣
All my MB's using both 30 and 72 (fpm only) pins SIMM are socket 3 with a zif socket.
I also have some lif socket 2 motherboards (I don't know if the fact that the socket is blue make it absolutely "socket 2" but the 19x19 PGA and that maximum supported cpu's written on board are DX2 don't lie) and all of them only use 30 pins SIMM on 8 slots 😕
I think, and it may be possible that your motherboard is a lif socket 3, and so a very castrated socket 3 MB btw.
Not 100% sure if an Overdrive DX4 would by alright, 60 NS RAM and 15 NS SRAM sounds good, easiest and fastest way to speed up the pc would be the 40 Mhz bus and like you said with an active cooling you should be alright.
All my DX2-66 cpu's (3 WT and 1 WB) can easily be o/c 'd to DX2-80 (I just glued better heatsinks on them with thermal paste on the center and fixed a fan on the top of that just to be safe 🤣 ).
The better the MB manufacture is and the wider jumpers and BIOS settings are, faster the system will be with the o/c dx2-66. 60 NS RAM and 15 NS SRAM is a good start, good luck 😎

Reply 10 of 14, by Mr_Alert

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Just did the overclock, and everything seems to be working fine. Heatsink is still cool enough that I could touch it indefinitely, and Phil's benchmark suite is showing roughly 25% improvement across the board (which I guess is to be expected from a bus clock speed increase).

One nice thing about the mid tower case is that the side panels are separate, and the screws for them are in the front behind the face plate rather than in the back. Makes it much easier to get inside.

IMG_20150422_202436_scaled.jpg

Reply 11 of 14, by darksheer

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Nice case btw and congrats for the 25% speed improvement. 😀
Now with a bit of BIOS tweaking you can gain 1 fps and even up to 2 using UniVBE. 😁
With a generic VLB UMC 491F Motherboard, 256 KB 15 NS cache, 8 MB 60 NS RAM (8x1MB 30 PINS SIMM),
an ISA UMC HDD controller and a CL-5428 1MB 70 NS VLB video card (that is surely not the fastest card for DOS games),
I can get a bit more than 31 fps in Ultimate Doom (default screen size, general midi music and SB Sound) with a 80 Mhz Dx2-66.
With a S3 805 VLB video card I should get a solid 33 or even more fps, but it's already in use on a DX4 computer atm.
At 66 Mhz it's around 27 fps but here the cpu speed is really a bottleneck (only 0,2 fps difference between S3 805 and GD5428).

Welcome to vogons, have great fun with your 486 😀

Reply 13 of 14, by sosad

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The cache in there right now is 15ns. I have 12ns SRAM chips as well, but only 4 of them, so I could only get half the cache and that doesn't even include the tag RAM. Otherwise, the processor seems to run cool enough, and I have active cooling on it, so I might as well give it a shot.

Usman