A word of advice: Stop this flame war, keep it civil and go back on topic or I will be forced to CLOSE THIS THREAD.

Abandonware has a lot of uses for people owning original copies. It means PDF scanned manuals, it means cracked games, it means patched games, it means games that used to need a floppy drive, etc. I personally asked to get Quarantine cracked because I didn't want to use the code sheet everytime I wanted to play.

IMSHO this site does not and should not be tied to abandonware, as it still is warez by the letter of the law, the fact the law is stupid doesn't change anything.

If DOSBOX were tied into warez into would hurt the project, my only concern is that there seems a prejudice that owning originals means you understand running DOS BOX.

I *used* to be very proficient with DOS, then I took a Win95 course, purchased Windows 95, upgraded to Windows 98, and now am running Windows XP, its been almost a decade since I've really used DOS...

😁

el Pusher, with due respect, as someone who admins 2 Sierra forums, I'd hardly call this a 'flame war'. Everyone's tried hard to be civil (aside from a couple).

I won't add to what I've already said, except to say:

The best solution? Freeware. 3DRealms (Joe Seigler Mostly) releases games every few months to the public. Thats how you do it. That way you keep your old fans happy, and new fans can see what the fuss was about.

I'm a massive old fan of Apogee games, but token freeware releases aside, I couldn't be less happy with Apogee's stance. Is this the same Joe Siegler who once said "You can make a Monster Bash doll, but you can't send it to your friend because that's infringing our copyright". WTF?
I think it's the same Joe Siegler who introduced a forum rule that you can have your account deleted for basically disagreeing with Apogee/3DRealms and people like Joe, too.

But back on-topic. I think the discussion has been largely positive, the rules have been cleared up, and I think everyone pretty much agrees with the 'not all abandonware is bad, but because of the scale of DOSBox, and because we want a future for it, it doesn't have a place here' premise.

- Spike

red_avatar wrote:

Abandonware has a lot of uses for people owning original copies. It means PDF scanned manuals, it means cracked games, it means patched games, it means games that used to need a floppy drive, etc. I personally asked to get Quarantine cracked because I didn't want to use the code sheet everytime I wanted to play.

Yeah, some copyright schemes were just plain annoying. KQ4 had you counting words and paragraphs in the manual. Others had you match things from the manual, like the fingerprints in The Colonel's Bequest I have legal copies of almost all of the AGI and SCI Sierra games, but I will confess to having abandoned versions of a couple of these to save manual wear and tear and to avoid the annoyance factor.

exofreeze wrote:

When did you start trying to run dos games?

Since 1984.

exofreeze wrote:

I'm positive that statistically speaking you are a 'newer dos gamer' then a lot of other people on these forums.

Are you offended? Oh, and this pic sure says alot of my prior experience.

exofreeze wrote:

I own original copies of 1,600+ games, mostly dos, although about %15 is w95 or newer.

That's not a very realistic number, either, and I wouldn't brag a high number of 'owned' stuff to defend myself on a forum. Please, turn e-thug mode off before you post next time, thanks

Again the point I was trying to make (which everyone misunderstands because they feel offended and guilty) is that tampered 'fixed' copies aren't really eligible for DOSBox support.

What if so many people had said "Star Trek A Final Unity" RIP ran 'perfectly' and all but an actual genuine CD version could not install from a user with a legit copy? Those wouldn't be very accurate reports from those 'lol download abandonwarez' users now would it?

Lei,

While when you're not being hostile I pretty much agree with you, I still don't agree with some of your logic.

To use Sierra games as an example, pretty much no games have been tampered with so much by 'haxorz' that they would obscure a technical DOSBox report. And I don't think anyone here is advocating that DOSBox devs rely on abandonware players for their bug and status reports (and I don't think many such players would contribute to DOSBox either!).

As for tech support, I can see where it potentially would be a problem. But it sounds very iffy to me- the vast majority of old game issues I hear about are known issues. Such as, known circumstances that lead to game crashes, sound issues, 'why isn't my game working on win XP' or 'how do i get my game working on win XP'. Very rarely in my experience (at least with Sierra games) is there any correlation between a game's legitimacy and its' likelihood of having extra problems or benefits (aside from cracked copy protection of course).

However, I'm not very experienced outside my good knowledge of Sierra (and Apogee) games, and my sentiments are possibly not valid for say LucasArts or majority other games. I accept that.

I still believe the (vast) majority of old game techie issues are ignorance-related, however (as in, people posting for help rather than Google or forum searching, for example), and unrelated to illegality/legality of the game in question.

Regards,
- Spike

The only time an illegitimate copy would affect compatibility results is with CD games. A CD check might render a game unrunnable, but the cracked copy might run just fine. Mind you I would argue that said crack should just be shared, because the game isn't probably still sold anyway and why let legitmate customers suffer? I for one manually remove the CD-dependency of my Sierra games and I see nothing really wrong with that.

Spikey - about Joe, I would cut him some slack. He's not out to get anyone, he just runs a tight ship. If you've seen some of the asshats he's had to deal with he's actually less of a bear than you'd think. 😁 He single handedly works on freeware releases you know, so any games that make it to the public are his doing. 😀 I think thats worth a pat on the back.

I'm not trying to make anyone out as a 'bear'. I call the things the way I see them, based on my views and the facts. Almost everyone in this thread has posted (in my view) articulately and accurately, and I don't think most views as expressed have been inconsistent with one another. That's why I questioned a moderator saying we have a 'flame war'. As far as I can see, everyone's agreed with each other, it's mainly semantic differences. But I think, as I said previously, and I also think it's important not to lose focus of this- that everyone agrees with the fundamental- that although abandonware isn't necessarily a bad thing, we have to live with none of it here because of the close supervision of DOSBox (e.g. because of the Sierra collection rereleases).

On a non-DOSBox related front though, I think it's ridiculous to laud legitimate (but illegal) gamers as pirates if the game isn't (and is unlikely to) being sold. A victimless crime, I think someone said earlier. But given what the modo mods at Abandonia said, likening it to car theft, my opinion isn't shared by everyone.

But, I'm not looking for a fight. I think these forums are pretty good ones, and certainly very valuable (although a lot of the areas seem defunct- does anyone care about VDM Sound/Speedset still ?).
I just don't like abandonware and 'piraters' of games which have no economic interests being bandied around by people with pseudo moral-highgrounds. It's wrong.

- Spike

VDMSound/Speedset rely on the mess that is NTVDM. No development is or ever will be active on those 2 projects but we do keep the forums arround for technical help.

red_avatar wrote:

Abandonware is not legal most of the time but I know that most developers don't mind. It's the old publishers that do. Developers like their games to still be played after all - they take pride in that. Morally, as long as games are no longer sold, it's pretty clear that there's little problems with that. I personally buy as many old games as I can, but some are just impossible to get hold of.

We have seen a few attempts and requests at porting DOSBox to handheld devices / smartphones. Currently these ports are not very succesful, mainly due to the lack of CPU power and a suitable hacked SDL to handle the lack of a true keyboard.

But I wouldn't be surprised, if in 1-2 years, we see DOSBox 0.75 running on a smartphone, and I think the publishers are eyeing the same future and recognizing a big market for their old titles. So for now, they hold onto their rights and wait for technology to catch up. You might think the titles are worth nothing, but it could all change very rapidly.

So for now, they hold onto their rights

You expect them to give them up once services like Gametap\Steam become even more popular? I don't expect we'll see any old games go freeware\GPL in the future. The only possibility will be "free" games as long as you install the streaming\activation programs. bleh.

No, quite the opposite. Old games will have renewed value when DOSBox (or DOS-emulators in general) becomes widespread on new devices like smartphones, or game consoles. So no sudden mass-release of old games as freeware.

I am lucky enough to have a nearby shop that sell old games for $10-15, and I don't play games very often, so I don't need to rely on illegal downloads.

I originally posted this in its own thread but I thought it pointless to have two parallel threads about abandonware - sorry if you were replying to it before I deleted it.

I've been visiting this forum for a while now when I've been having a few problems with a couple of games, so I thought it was high time I registered and made a few contributions. One of the things that's struck me is the arguments for and against abandonware, but nobody's really said anything about arguments for abandonware.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those peeps who goes around downloading hundreds of games off abandonware sites in one go - actually I have 200-250 original DOS games (mostly compilations, some rereleases but also some real rarities, photo available if anyone doesn't believe me) but I wouldn't say I'm above downloading the odd game that I can't find elsewhere (of course, if I *do* find it elsewhere, I buy it). The fact remains, however, that abandonware has its arguments for:

* The argument that copyright owners are losing out is defunct. If a copyright owner rereleases a game and it is still on the market, then that is not classed as abandonware and most sensible abandonware sites (Underdogs, Abandonia) make people aware of where they can buy these games. Indeed, uploading a game which is still available to buy is piracy. If a copyright owner chooses not to rerelease a title however, the only way you can obtain the game legally is through secondhand means - for which the copyright owner is not reimbursed anyway.

* Abandonware is what's keeping interest in DOSBox alive. Sad, but true. It would be great if everybody who used DOSBox was using original software, but it's ultimately the abandonware scene that's kept interest in this project going. How many people genuinely collect masses of genuine old software? Personally I know only myself, and I know that there is a minority out there that do the same. The problem was that if DOSBox was somehow restricted to only using original software (someone suggested it), interest in the program would wane.

* Abandonware does keep these games alive. I know those who contest that abandonware is evil full stop dispute this, but many games that are released on abandonware sites from before 1995 are titles that only the older generation (25+) remember. A very small minority of cult titles (Doom, Tomb Raider, LucasArts adventures as examples) have been revived, other classics have been left to rot by copyright owners who don't have any interest in them. Really, I can't encourage those too young to remember enough to take an interest in gaming heritage and buy these titles, but I know that they'd rather spend their money on the latest 3D shooter with Pixel Shader 3.0 technology.

I'm not pushing myself as absolutely right here, as this is going to be a subject that is going to be argued over and argued over until the cows come home. It's subjective. I realise that copyright law in many countries forbids this officially. But then again law in many countries forbids a lot of things we've taken for granted in the past - taping films off the TV or songs off the radio, making backups of games for personal use (I've done this for my rarest games, but when I lived in the UK that was technically illegal). Point is, just because it's law doesn't automatically make the law right.

Let's see what all here seem to agree upon:

1. Technically Abandonware is illegal.
2. DOSBOX does not support Abandonware for that reason.
3. Abandonware can have legitimate usages (preserving heritage and making older games playable on newer systems, etc.).
4. Many copyright owners do not care about Abandonware (but some do).

Basically, I understand why the makers of DOSBOX want to keep their distance from Abandonware. It is for their own safety. So those of us who may occasionally use Abandonware should simply be aware of DOSBOX's stance. You can ask for help but if it is apparent that the problem is related to it being an Abandonware rip, then go to HOTU's Technical Forum for help. They will answer your questions there.

Although I own original DOS games (my first computer in the 80s was when I was in college) I do occasionally use Abandonware versions (sometimes just to skip the annoying copy protection they used to have), but I understand that this may occasionally conflict with DOSBOX. I understand their stance against Abandonware. It is for their own protection. I occasionally get help here, and I give help as well, but if it is an Abandonware problem I use HOTU's forum. I think that is a fair solution that keeps everybody happy.

😁

jamyskis wrote:

* The argument that copyright owners are losing out is defunct. If a copyright owner rereleases a game and it is still on the market, then that is not classed as abandonware and most sensible abandonware sites (Underdogs, Abandonia) make people aware of where they can buy these games. Indeed, uploading a game which is still available to buy is piracy. If a copyright owner chooses not to rerelease a title however, the only way you can obtain the game legally is through secondhand means - for which the copyright owner is not reimbursed anyway.

Copyright owners may not loose out, but what about the people that bought a surplus of old games, and now sells them on eBay? They will (and do) loose out due to "abandonware" sites. And so do I, if I want to swap/sell one of the games I have bought. Is that fair?

Minimax - I buy those surplus games if they're reasonably priced and they always end up getting sold. I always have to fight for them on ebay. A few i got cheap, like Micro Machines, but that's not so rare. There's a lot of collectors.

Copyright owners may not loose out, but what about the people that bought a surplus of old games, and now sells them on eBay? They will (and do) loose out due to "abandonware" sites. And so do I, if I want to swap/sell one of the games I have bought. Is that fair?

MiniMax,

With respect, I disagree. I'm a Sierra game collector (as in, boxes), and I'm not so selfish as to claim abandonware hurts me financially. I think the benefit for everyone is far greater than a few bucks for me, given eBay's prices have gone down a lot recently anyway.

I try and sell my games on collector forums, or game-themed forums. I advise you to do the same. While it's not a sure thing, I usually get some interest.

Ultimately, while it's not necessarily fair for you (or me), I'm a firm believer in 'the benefit for all outweighes the interests of a few'.

And in the end, if you have rare enough games, those games haven't lost value on eBay.

On gametap and other such services- I think it's wrong! Sure, some people who are nervous about legality may swing that way, but really- how much does it suck paying someone who didn't make these games money for a download? Badly I think.

- Spike

Copyright owners may not loose out, but what about the people that bought a surplus of old games, and now sells them on eBay? They will (and do) loose out due to "abandonware" sites. And so do I, if I want to swap/sell one of the games I have bought. Is that fair?

It depends on the game, but those who download from abandonware sites generally wouldn't have forked out for a game that's over a decade old anyway. Those of us who appreciate the value of a good game, no matter how old, will put in the money for it, as I say, depending on the game (there was some real crap released back then as there is today, and if you try to flog those games you understandably won't get much for them).

Publishers are aware of the monetary value of a title, which is why stuff like Doom, Tomb Raider, and the LucasArts adventures get rejigged and rereleased. For the majority of titles though, publishers and developers just don't see any monetary sense in supporting or rewriting obscure DOS titles unless they do have a cult following (like the above titles do), and likewise, people are wary when it comes to buying a game that old because of the risk that it won't run. Of course, we all know that DOSBox runs 95% of the games out there now, but the average casual gamer doesn't.

I will tell you this. I am not against abandonware at all. I actually support it. Every abandonware site advertises Dosbox. I also am in support of you not giving support to abandonware. That may sound like double speak but its like this. Dosbox was made for people who want to play their old games on their new computers. Abandonware sites heard about it and told everyone. Abandonware sites tell their patrons to download their games and get Dosbox. Thats why you people are getting are getting threads from people who downloaded their games from abandonware sites. Its not your fault, its the abandonware site's fault. Abandonware Sites have their own forums and I started this thread to let people know that if you got your game from an abandonware site use their forum instead of here. Technology has always been used for good and bad. Look at double cassette decks they are meant for you to make copies. Not entirely legal unless for personal use but they were still made anyway. I remember when vcrs came out and they were almost vanquished until the supreme court here in the US stepped in. We just got to make sure as to not answer any abandonware questions to cover our selves. People will do what they do , we don't have to participate. I know that my statement to support abandonware makes look like a hypocrite but I'm not. If someone lended me a movie and that I wanted to see and they recorded off of HBO technically they could not do that. I still would watch it anyway. The abandonware sites have people who can and do help with their games. I 'm just saying to keep their stuff and our stuff seperate.