ragefury32 wrote on 2020-12-24, 21:55:

The latter is a little more tough. There’s 2 possible paths:

- Any Sempron or Athlon64 based thin client (like the HP t5730) has a Radeon X1300 based embedded GPU inside the Xpress 1250 northbridge, which can in theory take the last Catalyst drivers made for Win98 - it does contain beta support for the X800 class GPUs, which the X1300 is based on (check Phil’s computer lab for downloads). You might have to scan the pci id and modify the INF files in the installer to include the pci id so it will be installed.

- Intel Atoms based on Diamondville (N270 and etc) will have the old GMA950 chipset, which should be “adequate” to match the Radeon 7500 Mo of that vintage. That would be the HP t5740, or, the first Merom/Yonah based Mac Minis. There is supposedly a set of modified Intel drivers that’ll work well with them on Win98.

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series 🤣.

If the goal is solely for Win98, the 1.2G model (Efficeon TM8600 instead of TM5XXX from the 800MHz model) of T5710 is also recommended since it's has a higher CPU clock.
The weakness is, it uses a ULi M1563 chipset, which means no SB16 support under real DOS 🙁

As for T5740, it actually uses N280 with a GL40 chipset. The GPU is GMA4500M and I cannot find any driver that indicates compatibility with Win98.
At least it's perfectly fine using it as a DOS box with its PCI expansion module.

For the X1250 from T5730, it seems like somebody over at MSFN already tried with the newest Catalyst with some modification and had no luck. I'll try it myself later. https://msfn.org/board/topic/158640-compatibl … -for-ati-x1250/

elmirador wrote on 2021-03-04, 09:46:

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series lol. […]
Show full quote

ragefury32 wrote on 2020-12-24, 21:55:

The latter is a little more tough. There’s 2 possible paths:

- Any Sempron or Athlon64 based thin client (like the HP t5730) has a Radeon X1300 based embedded GPU inside the Xpress 1250 northbridge, which can in theory take the last Catalyst drivers made for Win98 - it does contain beta support for the X800 class GPUs, which the X1300 is based on (check Phil’s computer lab for downloads). You might have to scan the pci id and modify the INF files in the installer to include the pci id so it will be installed.

- Intel Atoms based on Diamondville (N270 and etc) will have the old GMA950 chipset, which should be “adequate” to match the Radeon 7500 Mo of that vintage. That would be the HP t5740, or, the first Merom/Yonah based Mac Minis. There is supposedly a set of modified Intel drivers that’ll work well with them on Win98.

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series 🤣.

If the goal is solely for Win98, the 1.2G model (Efficeon TM8600 instead of TM5XXX from the 800MHz model) of T5710 is also recommended since it's has a higher CPU clock.
The weakness is, it uses a ULi M1563 chipset, which means no SB16 support under real DOS 🙁

As for T5740, it actually uses N280 with a GL40 chipset. The GPU is GMA4500M and I cannot find any driver that indicates compatibility with Win98.
At least it's perfectly fine using it as a DOS box with its PCI expansion module.

For the X1250 from T5730, it seems like somebody over at MSFN already tried with the newest Catalyst with some modification and had no luck. I'll try it myself later. https://msfn.org/board/topic/158640-compatibl … -for-ati-x1250/

I have the t5720 and stuck with it. Both examples above will not work if DOS compatibility is a “thing” that you need to take into consideration since both the AMD chipset or the Intel ICH7M (used in the Atoms) will not do distributed DMA needed for ISA DMA/IRQ access (required for oldschool soundblaster support on PCI)

As for whether drivers exist? Maybe the GMA will have beta drivers on Win98. I would like to see an Intel 440 chipset based thin client out there but it likely does not exist.

ragefury32 wrote on 2021-03-04, 18:26:

elmirador wrote on 2021-03-04, 09:46:

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series lol. […]
Show full quote

ragefury32 wrote on 2020-12-24, 21:55:

The latter is a little more tough. There’s 2 possible paths:

- Any Sempron or Athlon64 based thin client (like the HP t5730) has a Radeon X1300 based embedded GPU inside the Xpress 1250 northbridge, which can in theory take the last Catalyst drivers made for Win98 - it does contain beta support for the X800 class GPUs, which the X1300 is based on (check Phil’s computer lab for downloads). You might have to scan the pci id and modify the INF files in the installer to include the pci id so it will be installed.

- Intel Atoms based on Diamondville (N270 and etc) will have the old GMA950 chipset, which should be “adequate” to match the Radeon 7500 Mo of that vintage. That would be the HP t5740, or, the first Merom/Yonah based Mac Minis. There is supposedly a set of modified Intel drivers that’ll work well with them on Win98.

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series 🤣.

If the goal is solely for Win98, the 1.2G model (Efficeon TM8600 instead of TM5XXX from the 800MHz model) of T5710 is also recommended since it's has a higher CPU clock.
The weakness is, it uses a ULi M1563 chipset, which means no SB16 support under real DOS 🙁

As for T5740, it actually uses N280 with a GL40 chipset. The GPU is GMA4500M and I cannot find any driver that indicates compatibility with Win98.
At least it's perfectly fine using it as a DOS box with its PCI expansion module.

For the X1250 from T5730, it seems like somebody over at MSFN already tried with the newest Catalyst with some modification and had no luck. I'll try it myself later. https://msfn.org/board/topic/158640-compatibl … -for-ati-x1250/

I have the t5720 and stuck with it. Both examples above will not work if DOS compatibility is a “thing” that you need to take into consideration since both the AMD chipset or the Intel ICH7M (used in the Atoms) will not do distributed DMA needed for ISA DMA/IRQ access needs for oldschool soundblaster support.

As for whether drivers exist? Maybe the GMA will have beta drivers on Win98. I would like to see an Intel 440 chipset based thin client out there but it likely does not exist.

Ah... that explains why my YMF724F refuses to emulate SB in DOS.
My card must be a weird one because the Yamaha 3.16 driver won't even recognize SB at 220h (which means I cannot use DSDMA), but the older 3.11 version could.
I struggled to find a T5720 until yesterday. It still doesn't come with the expansion module, but I guess a normal PCI riser card would do the trick.
In the meantime I'll try other YMF724 clones I guess.

My dream retro PC would be something that supports legacy SB16 under DOS, have enough power to play some late 90s 3D title under Win98, in a small form factor like a laptop / thin client.
That's probably not going to happen but hey, a man can dream 😜

elmirador wrote on 2021-03-04, 19:44:

Ah... that explains why my YMF724F refuses to emulate SB in DOS. My card must be a weird one because the Yamaha 3.16 driver won' […]
Show full quote

ragefury32 wrote on 2021-03-04, 18:26:

elmirador wrote on 2021-03-04, 09:46:

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series lol. […]
Show full quote

At this point, I almost got every model from the HP T57x0 series 🤣.

If the goal is solely for Win98, the 1.2G model (Efficeon TM8600 instead of TM5XXX from the 800MHz model) of T5710 is also recommended since it's has a higher CPU clock.
The weakness is, it uses a ULi M1563 chipset, which means no SB16 support under real DOS 🙁

As for T5740, it actually uses N280 with a GL40 chipset. The GPU is GMA4500M and I cannot find any driver that indicates compatibility with Win98.
At least it's perfectly fine using it as a DOS box with its PCI expansion module.

For the X1250 from T5730, it seems like somebody over at MSFN already tried with the newest Catalyst with some modification and had no luck. I'll try it myself later. https://msfn.org/board/topic/158640-compatibl … -for-ati-x1250/

I have the t5720 and stuck with it. Both examples above will not work if DOS compatibility is a “thing” that you need to take into consideration since both the AMD chipset or the Intel ICH7M (used in the Atoms) will not do distributed DMA needed for ISA DMA/IRQ access needs for oldschool soundblaster support.

As for whether drivers exist? Maybe the GMA will have beta drivers on Win98. I would like to see an Intel 440 chipset based thin client out there but it likely does not exist.

Ah... that explains why my YMF724F refuses to emulate SB in DOS.
My card must be a weird one because the Yamaha 3.16 driver won't even recognize SB at 220h (which means I cannot use DSDMA), but the older 3.11 version could.
I struggled to find a T5720 until yesterday. It still doesn't come with the expansion module, but I guess a normal PCI riser card would do the trick.
In the meantime I'll try other YMF724 clones I guess.

My dream retro PC would be something that supports legacy SB16 under DOS, have enough power to play some late 90s 3D title under Win98, in a small form factor like a laptop / thin client.
That's probably not going to happen but hey, a man can dream 😜

Eh, Mini-ITX is invented by Via for their C3/C7 platforms, and there’s not much you can do in terms of something being both PCI audio card friendly and have decent 3D performance. The closest you can do is probably the Igel Winnet IV/Aquarius 5BLSP-A, which comes with an AMD K6-2E (upgradable) and ESS Solo-1 embedded on the board - it should be able to fit a Voodoo 1 within and get some game going. Otherwise, ehh, maybe get a laptop with the right specs if you need the space, like a Compaq Presario 1800T.

ragefury32 wrote on 2021-03-09, 05:39:

elmirador wrote on 2021-03-04, 19:44:

Ah... that explains why my YMF724F refuses to emulate SB in DOS. My card must be a weird one because the Yamaha 3.16 driver won' […]
Show full quote

ragefury32 wrote on 2021-03-04, 18:26:

I have the t5720 and stuck with it. Both examples above will not work if DOS compatibility is a “thing” that you need to take into consideration since both the AMD chipset or the Intel ICH7M (used in the Atoms) will not do distributed DMA needed for ISA DMA/IRQ access needs for oldschool soundblaster support.

As for whether drivers exist? Maybe the GMA will have beta drivers on Win98. I would like to see an Intel 440 chipset based thin client out there but it likely does not exist.

Ah... that explains why my YMF724F refuses to emulate SB in DOS.
My card must be a weird one because the Yamaha 3.16 driver won't even recognize SB at 220h (which means I cannot use DSDMA), but the older 3.11 version could.
I struggled to find a T5720 until yesterday. It still doesn't come with the expansion module, but I guess a normal PCI riser card would do the trick.
In the meantime I'll try other YMF724 clones I guess.

My dream retro PC would be something that supports legacy SB16 under DOS, have enough power to play some late 90s 3D title under Win98, in a small form factor like a laptop / thin client.
That's probably not going to happen but hey, a man can dream 😜

Eh, Mini-ITX is invented by Via for their C3/C7 platforms, and there’s not much you can do in terms of something being both PCI audio card friendly and have decent 3D performance. The closest you can do is probably the Igel Winnet IV/Aquarius 5BLSP-A, which comes with an AMD K6-2E (upgradable) and ESS Solo-1 embedded on the board - it should be able to fit a Voodoo 1 within and get some game going. Otherwise, ehh, maybe get a laptop with the right specs if you need the space, like a Compaq Presario 1800T.

Thanks for the suggestion! That'll be awesome if I could find one of these boards here but I don't have high hopes... ICS boards are much easier to find though!
Laptops from that era are also easier to find but pinpointing an exact model could be difficult... I'll see what I could do!

I was also playing with the thought of a Win98 thin client. There is one made by a German manufacturer. The Igel 5/4 line.
Some of them offer really interesting expansion options, like PCI as well as PCMCIA.

Started wondering how would it do with a Geforce MX440 PCI and and Audigy 2 ZS PCMCIA cards.

These clients generally have 1GHz VIA C7 CPU and 256 or 512MB RAM and for storage CF slot and 44pin IDE.
On paper these look very nice, the question is, how would they do in Windows?

RandomStranger wrote on 2021-04-22, 07:05:

I was also playing with the thought of a Win98 thin client. There is one made by a German manufacturer. The Igel 5/4 line. Some […]
Show full quote

I was also playing with the thought of a Win98 thin client. There is one made by a German manufacturer. The Igel 5/4 line.
Some of them offer really interesting expansion options, like PCI as well as PCMCIA.

Started wondering how would it do with a Geforce MX440 PCI and and Audigy 2 ZS PCMCIA cards.

These clients generally have 1GHz VIA C7 CPU and 256 or 512MB RAM and for storage CF slot and 44pin IDE.
On paper these look very nice, the question is, how would they do in Windows?

The Igel 5/4 is not really its model #. it's the Winestra 4210LX.
It'll probably be fine for pure Win98, but it'll be a coin toss if you want to play clean DOS mode games. The challenge here is to figure out if the onboard southbridge can do native DOS audio (it can't) and whether it can do DDMA so PCI soundcards will work in DOS (it might, since it has either a VT8235 or 8237, I am not sure).
In terms of CPU performance it's somewhere around a late PII or early PIII.

Here's the writeup on Parkytowers:
https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Igel/4210/

I just had made a new thread about this because I must have been too tired to type thin client into the search bar.

I am still trying to figure out if these sempron/x1250 systems work with windows 98. I can not find a thread or video on the internet confirming this.
Everybody says it should work, but Phil states in his HP t5730 video that it does not work.

I also was looking at the Fujitsu S400 (I can get a ton of those for 10-15€ locally) with a GeodeNX 1500 and a SiS741CX chipset. When I look it up I just find Win9x support for SiS741 or SiS741GX, not CX

I just need something that is fast enough to run the yamaha and roland virtual synth drivers and can fit at least a pci soundcard. I would prefer to have the case closed.

I was reading about the Igel on https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Igel/4210/ again and on the windows tab he is saying that he could not install anything but Windows 7. I wonder about the patience of that guy, installing Windows7 on a hp t610 was bad enough. So sadly no Windows 98 on the Hedgehog!

And just 10 minutes later I have found 2 sellers in Germany shipping it with Windows 98. I think I give it a shot.

i recently got my hands on a Fujitsu Futro S400. For me that device is the sweet spot regarding windows 98. you have a Geode NX 1500+ installed and a pci slot. it basically is a even more compact version of the HP T5720 with a PCI breakout. also it has a compact flash connector directly attached to the mainboard. i added a PCI fx5200 low profile and connected my usb audigy2 nx works good so far. but it gets very hot with the fx5200. i think it may be a bit small for a voodoo pci which i dont have .

https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s400/

I have not tested it quite well for now, but i willl add the Geode NX 1750+ and a Fan for cooling if i ever find the time.

zapedge wrote on 2023-03-01, 22:01:

i recently got my hands on a Fujitsu Futro S400. For me that device is the sweet spot regarding windows 98. you have a Geode NX 1500+ installed and a pci slot. it basically is a even more compact version of the HP T5720 with a PCI breakout. also it has a compact flash connector directly attached to the mainboard. i added a PCI fx5200 low profile and connected my usb audigy2 nx works good so far. but it gets very hot with the fx5200. i think it may be a bit small for a voodoo pci which i dont have .

https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/Futro/s400/

I have not tested it quite well for now, but i willl add the Geode NX 1750+ and a Fan for cooling if i ever find the time.

You guys got me. i was hyped about the result so I wasted my weekend seting up the Futro S400 machine with windows 98Se and tested it with the onboard GPU, NVS280 PCI 64MB 64-Bit, FX5500 PCI 256MB 128-Bit and i can tell you it is not a good Windows 98 Machine.

I got about 3600 2001-3DMArks with the fx5500, 3400 with the NVS and about 2400 with the SIS300 onboard solution (which is not fully compatible, skipping few).
Overall the passively cooled chipset seems to be the problem, it gets quite hot. when this happens the machine begins to lag.
This did not happen when looping 3Dmark through the night, but i had the windows open and it was quide cold...
Onboard Audio works not very well also. SIS 7012 Audio. I get no sound in Half-Life at all and in Warcraft3 not even the miles 3d Audio is working.

Compared to the T5710, which runs rock solid and has a Radeon 7000 on Board, it is garbage.

Also the Geode NX 1750 does not boot. voltage is limited to 1V. DDR400 Module is only operated as 333Mhz Module.

So my vote goes to the T5710... it runs everything until 2000 smoothly

I have one with ssd inside (ssd 4gb card). Itona 1ghz Via w/ SATA support- installed win2k on it. (looks something like this )

Neoware CA2 is probably the closest you'll get for wide compatibility.
It's only 800mhz, but it has a socketed CPU and you could CONCEIVABLY modify it for a faster processor and better heatsink/fan. The motherboard even has populated fan headers.
The iGPU is a crappy S3 job, but it's actually quite good for DOS games, and more importantly it has a PCI/ISA riser. This means you can get an half-length ISA sound card or a single slot PCI video card inside it and get some decent performance for a great deal of Windows 98 stuff.
In fact, if you've got the skill and material, you can fashion a custom case and use a PCI riser cable and get both PCI video and ISA audio at the same time. I've tested this myself, and it works fine with a Voodoo3 or Nvida Geforce MX440 and an Aztech ISA sound card that has good SB16 compatibility in DOS.

About the T5730 i'm messing around with one at the moment and while you can install Windows 98 the sticking points are graphics and sound. If you have the PCI / PCIe expansion riser you can install a GPU and sort out the graphics easily enough. Sound you're kind of stuck with USB since the built in sound chip is a Realtek High Definition chip which as far as i can see has no easily installable drivers.

Yet to make up my mind whether this is a good idea or not, more tinkering to do.

You guys got me. i was hyped about the result so I wasted my weekend seting up the Futro S400 machine with windows 98Se and tested it with the onboard GPU, NVS280 PCI 64MB 64-Bit, FX5500 PCI 256MB 128-Bit and i can tell you it is not a good Windows 98 Machine.

Onboard Audio works not very well also. SIS 7012 Audio. I get no sound in Half-Life at all and in Warcraft3 not even the miles 3d Audio is working.

Hm, have you also tried with VXD sound drivers instead of WMD? I was thinking about buying one of these, but sound was a big question mark, the other one being the integrated video card under MS Dos (not sure if it has the scrolling bug in games like Gods (https://youtu.be/fxGUOqOjlMU?list=PL5T8bmLxd_ … pZfHPtbDJ&t=601) and Commander Keen 4 from which all Via iGPUs suffer).

Dae wrote on 2023-03-07, 13:58:

You guys got me. i was hyped about the result so I wasted my weekend seting up the Futro S400 machine with windows 98Se and tested it with the onboard GPU, NVS280 PCI 64MB 64-Bit, FX5500 PCI 256MB 128-Bit and i can tell you it is not a good Windows 98 Machine.

Onboard Audio works not very well also. SIS 7012 Audio. I get no sound in Half-Life at all and in Warcraft3 not even the miles 3d Audio is working.

Hm, have you also tried with VXD sound drivers instead of WMD? I was thinking about buying one of these, but sound was a big question mark, the other one being the integrated video card under MS Dos (not sure if it has the scrolling bug in games like Gods (https://youtu.be/fxGUOqOjlMU?list=PL5T8bmLxd_ … pZfHPtbDJ&t=601) and Commander Keen 4 from which all Via iGPUs suffer).

Thanks mate. I manually mapped the win95_98 Drivers. i started WC3 and miles 3d did run. but it was crackling. so i went down one step via ControlPanel- Multimedia - Advanced Features Acceleration (Phil did somthing like that to a Via chip AFAIK).... crackling gone. And i now also have sound in Half-Life... I even can select A3D and i have sound.

i will check if the lagging is gone too. system "feels" more stable though.

The Wyse Rx0 (expandable version) makes for a competent Windows 98/XP hybrid build. 3dMark01 score was just over 10,000 and 3dMark03 at just over 3,000.

I installed a Radeon x600 Pro PCIe card and a few pi fans for some extra airflow, powering them off the unused USB header.

For audio, I went with the Berrhinger UCA200 USB audio adapter

Here is the device manager after all was set up under Windows 98

Hello guys

Nice thread, I would also like to know which one is the best think client for Win98 and possibly native DOS support with SBEMU. Also do you know any safe sources where I can buy one online ?

Thank you
Chris

Roman78 wrote on 2019-05-15, 06:25:

One other option would be a PCI-graphic card in one of those i have, like in the T5710 or T5720. But i don't have the appropriate riser and case extension.

that's why IMHO the best thin client for Win9x and DOS is "Fujitsu Futro S400" - it doesn't need Riser and special case extension (very expensive and extremely difficult to find and buy), but it still has build-in PCI slot and no matter of that its case size is smaller than HP T5720. further more, its case is metal and not cheap plastic as HP - in fact that's the secret of its small size, because they use the metal on the case for additional cooling, i.e. the main coolers via thermal pads make contact with the metal case. last, but not least, "Futro S400" motherboard uses the same SiS chipset as HP T5720, which means it supports DDMA (Distributed DMA) in DOS. in other words, in DOS you can have pretty decent sound with DDMA compatible sound card and in Win9x you have choice to install PCI graphics card or use it in Win9x for MIDI synthesizer cards that don't have support for newer OSes like Yamaha SW1000XG.

Robertkopp wrote on 2022-04-12, 18:43:

I also was looking at the Fujitsu S400 (I can get a ton of those for 10-15€ locally)

yes, that price IMHO is another reason that makes it unbeatable option based on its features, not matter that @zapedge above found some shortcomings, at least for some applicaitons...

Robertkopp wrote on 2022-04-12, 18:43:

I just need something that is fast enough to run the yamaha and roland virtual synth drivers and can fit at least a pci soundcard. I would prefer to have the case closed.

I am not sure, what you mean here - I mean why Win9x is necessary in your case, because I use Fujitsu S400 for exactly such application, but for Yamaha SW1000XG (PCI MIDI card that has only Win9x support) and Yamaha S-YXG100plus (Soft synth) that works in Win9x only (in case of S-YXG100plus in the PCI slot, I installed Onkyo SE-80PCI).

Other Soft-synths like Yamaha S-YXG50 and Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi Plugin work in WinXP (the trick to make Roland works in WinXP and not use Win7 is to install MS Visual Studio Visual C++ Redistributable 2015 - if I recall correctly the version, maybe it was not 2015, but different version) and for those I use Fujitsu Futro S900 (there are many revisions, some very weak and slow, you need version with Dual-core G-T40N or best with G-T56N, Futro S900 with G-T56N is rare and not cheap, but at least those with G-T40N are very common and cheap). So, Futro S900 has PCI slot and it allows to install very high-end PCI low-profile sound card like Audiotrak HD2 or Onkyo SE-90PCI.

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-07, 17:21:

possibly native DOS support with SBEMU.

that for sure is much broader discussion, because at least I am not sure SBEMU is the best choice compared to the other 2 options I see:

* HP T5710 thin client with VIASBCFG tool to enable its sound in DOS:

VIASBCFG - VIA SBPro configuration tool for VIA VT8231 & VT82C686/A/B chipsets (v0.12d)

* the already mentioned Furto S400 with DDMA Sound card like Yamaha 74x

I think Yamaha 74x cannot be beaten with any of the other 2 options (SBEMU or VIASBCFG ), which more or less involve some emulation, but I think Yamaha 74x DOS tools do not include support for DDMA with Futro S400 chipset and I needed to write my own small tool for that - it was years ago I don't remember anymore, but in any way Futro S400 chipset has excellent DDMA support, years ago I tested it with all DDMA sound cards I have.

In fact I guess, HP T5710 is very good to have, because VIASBCFG support and also SBEMU should work (i.e. it has compatible with SBEMU AC97 codec, as far as I can tell).