VOGONS


Reply 40 of 58, by Trashbytes

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dionb wrote on 2024-05-02, 09:31:
So Windows 95 only, no DOS? […]
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drone16 wrote on 2024-05-02, 08:31:

> OP should clarify use cases.

1. Aesthetics and immense satisfaction turning it on
2. Key games of the era, Quake 2, Unreal, Age of Empires and so on.

So Windows 95 only, no DOS?

3. Tinkering with HW and SW. I made perfect boot floppy, DEVICEHIGH and oakcdrom 😀

That does sound like DOS.

Just got USB case brackets and ordered PS/2 ones.

USB... for anything more than HID, that implies Win98SE with patches.

So I'm afraid it's still not clear which OS' you're going to be running. Win95 vs Win98 doesn't really matter in terms of relevant hardware, but DOS does.

Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-02, 09:05:

[...]
I'm aware of what the 128 is ..I'm also aware the vast majority of 128 cards suffer from the Vaseline screen effect unless you are willing to shell out more than what the card is worth for one of the few models that have better quality. I own several cards in both 128 and 128ZX variants, the good ones do cost more than they are worth and I wont recommend anyone go buy them.

Let's not make assumptions about what is available to TS and how much it is going to cost. Anything from a premium brand will cost an arm and a leg on famous auction sites with 'buy it now', but it's often possible - if less predictable - to get stuff locally for far less.

For DOS gaming some concessions will have to be made, any GPU modern enough here to also have windows acceleration will likely have issues with some DOS games, If I wanted both then a TnT PCI or TnT2M64 PCI would be a good option and its what I have run in a similar build before, DOS compatibility with either card is excellent, mode X stuff will still have a few issues.

The TnT is 98 era so would be just fine alongside the Voodoo2 which is also 98 era.

Indeed. But everything you said about potentially awful image quality applies just as much to TNT(2) cards. There are some really good ones out there and there are too many downright awful ones. The good ones tend to be from brands that command premium prices.

But if DOS SVGA isn't needed it's simple: that Millennium II is a perfect 2D card to pair with a Voodoo.

If DOS SVGA is needed, it gets complicated and IMHO OP needs as many good options a possible so he can jump on the first one that seems affordable. Basically I'd go for anything with good DOS VESA support and Windows 2D acceleration (eg. Ark 2000, Cirrus Logic GD543x/4x, nVidia Riva 128 or TNT, S3 Trio or Virge) that pops up as a good deal.

Drone will need a PCi variant as no AGP .. so prices will be high unless its from a flea market or a local seller, my experience is that anything really good in PCI is going to be very expensive, nVidia more so than other brands.

I base my assumptions on the fact they are based in Australia where I live, I know what's generally available here, being from Sydney will help but retro parts are not as readily available here as elsewhere in the world.

Reply 41 of 58, by appiah4

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Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-02, 06:03:
drone16 wrote on 2024-04-24, 13:48:
Shponglefan wrote on 2024-04-24, 13:42:

You could technically do both. The Riva 128 is a 2D/3D card.

I tried to look for Riva 128 in PCI flavour (AFAIK there was no AGP on 1997 MBs). It was scarce and too expensive. I already invested in Voodoo2 anyways. $210 AUD damn 😀

Riva128 has horrible Image quality, the Millennium II is superior in that regards.

I have 3 Riva 128 cards, 1 PCI, 1 AGP, 1 AGP ZX; all of them have excellent image quality. Two of my cards are also VIVO cards with very sharp composite out as well. My cards are by ASUS, so I guess as usual it probably varies by manufacturer. Matrox had the luxury of being their own manufacturer so they probably have a more consistent quality across cards.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 42 of 58, by Trashbytes

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appiah4 wrote on 2024-05-02, 10:33:
Trashbytes wrote on 2024-05-02, 06:03:
drone16 wrote on 2024-04-24, 13:48:

I tried to look for Riva 128 in PCI flavour (AFAIK there was no AGP on 1997 MBs). It was scarce and too expensive. I already invested in Voodoo2 anyways. $210 AUD damn 😀

Riva128 has horrible Image quality, the Millennium II is superior in that regards.

I have 3 Riva 128 cards, 1 PCI, 1 AGP, 1 AGP ZX; all of them have excellent image quality. Two of my cards are also VIVO cards with very sharp composite out as well. My cards are by ASUS, so I guess as usual it probably varies by manufacturer. Matrox had the luxury of being their own manufacturer so they probably have a more consistent quality across cards.

Anything by ASUS is usually really good ! ...well they have had a few stinkers.

Reply 43 of 58, by drone16

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chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-02, 02:51:

I'd swap the ESS for a Yamaha card as think Decent sounds best with XG Midi but again I'm nit picking and wouldn't actually buy the hardware unless I had another system planned where I could use the ESS.

Is this good Yamaha? I see it is missing YMF704 chip...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/315199349671

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 44 of 58, by dominusprog

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drone16 wrote on 2024-05-02, 14:55:
chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-02, 02:51:

I'd swap the ESS for a Yamaha card as think Decent sounds best with XG Midi but again I'm nit picking and wouldn't actually buy the hardware unless I had another system planned where I could use the ESS.

Is this good Yamaha? I see it is missing YMF704 chip...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/315199349671

Yes, and don't worry about OPL, it's integrated into the main chip.

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A-Trend ATC-1020 V1.1 ❇ Cyrix 6x86 150+ @ 120MHz ❇ 32MiB EDO RAM (8MiBx4) ❇ A-Trend S3 Trio64V2 2MiB
Aztech Pro16 II-3D PnP ❇ 8.4GiB Quantum Fireball ❇ Win95 OSR2 Plus!

Reply 45 of 58, by drone16

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dominusprog wrote on 2024-05-02, 15:13:

Yes

Bought! Re ESS, there is eBay for that 😀
This card has YMF701 chip. https://www.dosdays.co.uk/topics/fm_synthesizers.php#YMF715

701 has "16-bit Address Decoding" as No. Should I be concerned?
Edit: Found "... 16-bit address decoding - this would allow addresses like 378h+400h, 378h+800h, 378h+C00h, and so on...", looks like it is not a problem.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 46 of 58, by Grem Five

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Shponglefan wrote on 2024-04-24, 15:31:
drone16 wrote on 2024-04-24, 13:48:

I tried to look for Riva 128 in PCI flavour (AFAIK there was no AGP on 1997 MBs). It was scarce and too expensive. I already invested in Voodoo2 anyways. $210 AUD damn 😀

The AGP spec was released mid-1997 and there were AGP options (motherboards + graphic cards) available later that year.

Voodoo2 is a 1998 card anyway... 😉

Correct my Micron Millennia XKU P300 has a Manufacture date of 11/1997
Model # AL440LX - PII300 - MT

Its an Atlanta 440LX motherboard that came with AGP and with a Diamond Viper v330

Reply 47 of 58, by drone16

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dionb wrote on 2024-05-02, 09:31:

USB... for anything more than HID, that implies Win98SE with patches.

Ha!
I just tested my old USB flash drive and it works, can copy files to and from! SisoftSandra99 says it is USB 1.0.

  • MB Chipset: 430TX
  • Win95 ver: OSR2.5 (4.03.1216) but without IE4, not sure how this happened, 🤣
  • Drivers: XUSBSUPP.EXE (1,208,672 bytes). Just this one, nothing else. Lucky is my middle name!

I think when I installed OSR2.5, I was installing on previous, 486 MB.
"However, on systems that are not compatible with IE 4, such as PCs with a 386 processor (IE4 requires at least a 486 processor), Internet Explorer 2 as seen in OSR 1 or Internet Explorer 3 as seen in OSR 2 and OSR 2.1 is installed instead." https://betawiki.net/wiki/Windows_95_build_1216

It was hell - booting Win95 after replacing MB to 430TX 😀

Last edited by drone16 on 2024-05-03, 02:22. Edited 1 time in total.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 48 of 58, by drone16

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USB header pinout, for reference: https://i.ibb.co/dfp3b2C/USB-Pinout-ECS.jpg

Key is to measure resistance, each pin to chassis, with power off (R column). Then, with power on, measure volts on two pins that read 42 Ohm, should be +5V there. The 14k Ohm ones are Data. Today's pinout of USB2.0 header cables applies as is, just drill a hole in the unused position.

Last edited by drone16 on 2024-05-04, 10:25. Edited 2 times in total.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 49 of 58, by chinny22

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I install OSR 2.5 on everything.
Skipping IE4 install isn't a big deal at all, you just need to remove the CD before the final reboot or remove the IE4*.* files if installing from a hard drive.

Never knew setup would run any check though! IE4 would install on my 486 back in the day (which is how I found out about the above)

You can always have both soundcards in a system at least for a while so you can compare the 2. All the different soundcards is what makes dos interesting

Reply 50 of 58, by drone16

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Tried to run Unreal Gold and it says "Unreal Gold.exe file expects a newer version of Windows"... So Unreal runs only on Win98 and later? I kinda stuck, googling fails.
Got it from here: REMOVED

Edit: Sorted. Got original disk: REMOVED, applied official Epic patch: https://www.oldunreal.com/patch/unreal/offici … tch226Final.exe
First game using 3dfx on my PC, confirmed by touching 3fdx chips - hot 😀 But man, it swaps on 16MB RAM, 32MB hepled a lot.

Last edited by DosFreak on 2024-05-15, 12:27. Edited 6 times in total.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 51 of 58, by drone16

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chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-03, 02:34:

I install OSR 2.5 on everything.
...
You can always have both soundcards in a system at least for a while so you can compare the 2. All the different soundcards is what makes dos interesting

Mystery solved, I installed OSR2.1 😀

Found Bad Blocks on my HDD, ordered another.

bad-blocks.jpg

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 52 of 58, by drone16

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Mystery NOT solved, I just reinstalled Win95 OSR2.5 from scratch, and I have no IE4, nor was asked to install it. Maybe it is the image I used...:
https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-95/osr-3 first variant, "CD Windows 95 OSR2.5 (OEM) (ISO)", filename = Win95_OSR25.iso (618,229,760 bytes)
What is going on?? 😀 Is it because I chose Custom Setup, selecting all components as Full, except Accessibility - None?
PS: Installed on IDE-CompactFlash adapter + CF 8GB Transcend TS8GCF133 card.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 53 of 58, by chinny22

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No idea, checked and the IE4 cab files are in the iso?
Whatever I'd be calling it a win, IE4 offers no benefit (and this coming from a guy that goes and installs IE5 even though that's pretty useless as well)

Reply 54 of 58, by VivienM

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chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-06, 06:14:

Whatever I'd be calling it a win, IE4 offers no benefit (and this coming from a guy that goes and installs IE5 even though that's pretty useless as well)

IE4 gives you the Windows Desktop Update... now, whether you want that is a good question.

Reply 55 of 58, by drone16

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VivienM wrote on 2024-05-06, 23:26:

IE4 gives you the Windows Desktop Update... now, whether you want that is a good question.

I had a day of frustration, super weird issue, probably caused by my custom boot floppy ... I'm still very confused, but now I have it working properly and made a Ghost backup 😀
Windows asks for Windows 95 Setup Floppy disks instead of Windows 95 CDROM
In relation to IE4, when I installed Win95 OSR2.5 from HDD, as opposed to from CDROM, I did get prompted for IE4 install after final reboot. For the first fkn time 😀
Ctrl-Alt-Del'd it, of course.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 56 of 58, by drone16

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dominusprog wrote on 2024-05-02, 15:13:

Yes, and don't worry about OPL, it's integrated into the main chip.

Yamaha sound card troubles 😀
[Solved] Jumperless, non-PnP ISA sound cards and Windows 95 hardware detection problem

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 57 of 58, by drone16

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Playing with FSB in preparation for K6-2+ CPU, modded to unlock 256kb L2 cache.
None of my two 64MB PC133 DIMMs pass memtest86 even at 75Hz FSB. Tried all possible settings in BIOS.
But my two 16MB SIMMs pass at 83Mhz FSB with flying colours! FPM, not EDO, but I ordered four new 16MB EDO ones.

Currently rocking P200 MMX at 3 x 83 = 250MHz.

Last edited by drone16 on 2024-05-15, 11:18. Edited 10 times in total.

1997 period correct retro PC build

Reply 58 of 58, by drone16

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And I found a novel way to set Core voltage to 2.0V. It looks like using more than one jumper on voltage setting header unlocks many combinations! I made an excel where you can predict voltage from any combination. Very proud of myself 😀
Attached power regulator datasheet.

Screenshot-2024-05-15-at-5-28-16-PM.png

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1997 period correct retro PC build