VOGONS


First post, by ux-3

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I am currently in the process of building a PC to run those rather problematic games from the transition age during the 2D/3D revolution.

I do have a dedicated Win98 PC that is based on an Athlon XP-M (free multi) and a GF6800. This system has enough power to run basically any win98 game that provides decent directX support or that will cooperate with a glide wrapper.

Very old DOS titles usually run fine in Dosbox.

So what is left is the stuff that is
-to fast to emulate,
-to restricted in hardware to be run on modern equipment or
-to investigative during setup (runs elsewhere later)

Obviously, this machine needs some Voodoo Graphics support. I do have the choice between all old Voodoos, either a V1, a V2 SLI or a V3. After experimenting for a while, I arrived at the conclusion that a V1 would be the best choice. My reason is this: Most games that take advantage of the V2 or V3 will either work fine with a glide wrapper too or support direct3D. If they don't, they will work on a V1. On the other hand, a fair number of games do not work with the V2 or V3 out of the box.

Having choosen the Voodoo1 as the transition card, I have to choose a regular graphics card. This card should be Vesa3 compliant. I do only have one such card aside from the Voodoo3: A Diamond Viper 330. This card seems to be ok for the job. I could throw in a more powerful geforce, but in Dos, I see only disadvantages.

As a base, I have two diffenrent mobos/CPU types to choose from. I do have an intact packard bell PC (Legend 2525 go), which is a micro ATX super socket 7 machine. I can use it with a Pentium MMX ranging from 133 MHz up to about 290 MHz, or AMD K6-2 with up to 500 MHz. The SIS chipset can only cache the 64MB ram - which should be enough for transitional games.

The other alternative is a Aopen MX6b EZ (slot 1, BX-chipset), which is equipped with a P2 that can run between 133MHz to 333MHz (plus OC) or a P3 800MHz.

I find this choice very difficult. The P1 is more "retro" in a sense. Bus and Muliplier are dip switches, two of which I have externalised for speed selection. It also comes in a nice and small case.

The P2-333 has more bios options and presumably more power. Its Bios offers the disablement of external cache - CPU-Z then interprets the CPU as a Celeron. With all the bios options, I can slow down the CPU to act like a 133MHz Celeron - that should be slow enough for the games of this period?

Both mobos come with an ESS Solo1 sound chip, which works very well as SB Pro in Dos. They both have an ISA Slot where I could put my old jumpered Soundblaster 16 - it should be supported by most games from the transition period.

Please help me make a selection regarding the components. Since too much speed is a likely source of problems, I am concerned about being able to throttle down the machine as much as possible.

I have run 3Dmark 2000 with a V3 2000 PCI and CPUs at 133 MHz on both boards to figure out which could be slowed the most:
P2: 438 3Dmarks
P1: 322 3Dmarks

Any other thoughts?

Thanks for help!

Reply 1 of 7, by bushwack

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Build both, that's what I did. 😉

But I would build on what your going to be playing. The PII with a Voodoo2 would have a greater range of playable games, being that you could still play DOS stuff and more Win98 titles too.

Reply 2 of 7, by ux-3

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bushwack wrote:

The PII with a Voodoo2 would have a greater range of playable games, being that you could still play DOS stuff and more Win98 titles too.

As I stated in the intro, I do have a far more powerful PC dedicated to the Win98 only games crowd, that has stubbornly refused to run on XP.

I have tested a voodoo2: Out of the box, only half the tested games did run straight away. Of those, most work with a wrapper too. The Voodoo1 runs those games that won't play in a wrapper.

Reply 3 of 7, by bushwack

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ux-3 wrote:

As I stated in the intro, I do have a far more powerful PC dedicated to the Win98 only games crowd, that has stubbornly refused to run on XP.

Oops somehow if overlooked that. You people and your crazy hotrod 98 machines. 😉

Just throw a Voodoo 1 in the Packard Bell and play around with it a bit.

Reply 4 of 7, by GL1zdA

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If you just satisfied with running the game, using Glide wrappers is OK. But if you a purist like me, you probably would like to run Glide games on real Voodoos (they do look a bit different on real Voodoos). Personally, my choice is a BX based PII with a Voodoo 1 (for the stubborn games) and a faster machine (now it's a BX + PIII 850) with a Voodoo 5500.

As far as I remember, there was quite a difference in framerate between a Pentium MMX 233 and a Pentium II 233. (It's even in Quake's readme - the game works better with a PPro than a Pentium). And I don't think there's much difference in 'retro'ness' between a Penitum and Pentium II.

I'm not sure if 3DMark is a good choice for 'slowness' benchmark - it tests the graphics core, not the CPU (or at least not as much). And games, that have speed issues, are tied to CPU performance.

For the regular VGA, if the Viper 330 works, than stick to it. If you experience problems, fallback to an S3 (with the original ViRGE (325) you can additionally run the few games with patches to use the S3's 3D capabilities).

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Reply 5 of 7, by bushwack

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The Viper 330 would be a good DOS performer and is vesa 3 compliant, and performance under DX5/6 rivals the Voodoo 1. I've thought about running one in my retro DOS/95 machine but opted for the infamous Virge.

Reply 6 of 7, by ux-3

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GL1zdA wrote:

If you just satisfied with running the game, using Glide wrappers is OK.

Yes, I have set my priorities on getting as much "junk" as possible out of the house.

GL1zdA wrote:

Personally, my choice is a BX based PII with a Voodoo 1 (for the stubborn games) and a faster machine (now it's a BX + PIII 850) with a Voodoo 5500.

I have analysed the behavior of a particular glide-capable game very extensively and found that even at 1000MHz, the cpu is the limiting factor, not the V3. AA is a nice thing to have, but I believe that I am getting it via wrapper too.

GL1zdA wrote:

I'm not sure if 3DMark is a good choice for 'slowness' benchmark - it tests the graphics core, not the CPU (or at least not as much). And games, that have speed issues, are tied to CPU performance.

Since I've used the very same card for those tests, any test difference must come from the rest of the system, which would be CPU and chipset. Of course, there is no linearity to be expected.

Reply 7 of 7, by ux-3

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I have finally opted for the P2-333/P3-800, with a Riva 128, a SB 16 (CT 1770) and a Voodoo1. While playing with the machine, I came across two interesting features. When I disable L1-Cache, I can play WC1 on it very nicely.

And the Voodoo1 stops working with the 800 MHz CPU. I haven't figured out why.

Retro PC warning: The things you own end up owning you.