Again: I tried numerous DOS games with those different settings I mentioned on a XR385 (Yamaha DB60XG clone, has GM, TG300/GS and XG modes) and besides volume differences they all played back the same GM data. So unless someone can specify games which use GS, send a GS reset and therefore actually sound different with the "Sound Canvas mode" than with the "GM mode" I'll stand by the fact that DOS games use General MIDI and nothing else.

The reason that a MU2000EX is capable of playing back tunes "written for SC-55" is that those tunes are simply adhering to the plain old GM standard. If you inspect either module you will find such a logo on both of them. Well, or much less likely GS: Most Yamaha MIDI devices have an appropriate mode for that as I mentioned before.

d1stortion wrote:

So unless someone can specify games which use GS...

You mentioned one yourself - Might and Magic: World of Xeen.

I should have made it more clear that this didn't come from my own experience, but rather from several forum posts mentioning this game as problematic. Haven't actually tried that one myself. So as I understand it this game will only play correctly when a GS reset is manually sent beforehand? That's interesting that they would go that far but fail to include that 😉

My main concern were games where you get to choose between Sound Canvas and GM though. The OP thought that SC would imply GS usage, which isn't true for all the games I played so far.

d1stortion wrote:

My main concern were games where you get to choose between Sound Canvas and GM though. The OP thought that SC would imply GS usage, which isn't true for all the games I played so far.

The thing to check for here would be the use of tones in the variation banks, or additional drum kits, both of which are GS features.

The 7th Guest, Ultima VIII, and Warcraft II come to mind. I don't know that a complete list has ever been attempted.

No, I never saw one. This would make great material for the wiki though 😀

For WC2 they actually released the MIDI files in two versions with different file sizes for whatever reason. The file names all end with "GM" and no resets are sent.

MT-32 vs CM-32L:

Dune 2
Notice Distorted Guitar at the beginning and Phaser Guitar from middle till end.

CM-32L vs Adlib vs MT-32:

Lure of The Temptress
Watch Adlib first to figure out what is going on
MT-32 will be just silent here 😉

A bonus:
DOSBox's avi compression vs simple zip 😉

Apologies in advance for not replying to all of your points; I'm only replying to stuff I have a clue about.

hifidelitygaming wrote:

Yes that's an example, but could you give an example, esp if any are online to hear? I didn't see any remarks to that effect in the wikipedia list.

Of CM-32L versus MT-32? I believe M&M: World of Xeen uses some CM-32L sounds. The original X-COM also plays a siren sound in the intro that is CM-32L only.

I understand that part, i'm aware there would be a difference, what I meant was whether it should respond to the same triggers. Opposite to how the MT-32 features were NOT emulated in the SC-55, my understanding (based solely upon what I understand from the X68000 boards) is that it was merely a programming of Roland GS commands, along with the specific wavetables in the SC-55. Ie there weren't other "hidden and unemulated commands" like there seems with the MT-32 track playing on a SC-55 because it was not a complete implementation. It SHOULD be a complete implementation on any other Roland GS compatible unit - even if the wavetables differ. Whether those wavetables sound better or not i'm aware will be a matter of personal preference just like it will be with General MIDI, but my point is that there wasn't some unemulated pitch bend command for instance that, given the SC-55 samples, would still sound different.

Barring differences in polyphony and various minor quirks, this sounds correct.

The differences between synths / patch sets can be quite dramatic, however. I was just playing Daggerfall MIDIs on my SC-88 a couple weeks ago, and some of them sounded quite different in SC-88 mode versus SC-55MkII mode on that same synthesizer.

HunterZ wrote:

My setup is:
MIDI: PC USB -> USB-MIDI interface -> SC-88 -> MT-32
Audio: MT-32 -> SC-88 -> PC Line In

I'm assuming that's under DOSBOX which i'd imagine could reroute, what i'm wondering is whether it will be the case under a real DOS PC. But since I remember fiddling around in config screens on old DOS games choosing IRQ's and memory addresses for MIDI configuration I would assume yes - the basic question i'm hoping to verify is on a real DOS PC, hooked to a real hardware MT-32, can I just use any MIDI interface and MIDI cable?

However i'm strongly guessing yes - if SysEx is how all the special programming occurs on the MT-32.

A real DOS PC needs an MPU-401 compatible interface, because that's what DOS games are generally hard-coded to talk to. There are a lot of options for getting such an interface, though (http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php?topic=3279.0 or Sound Blaster 16 ISA), including synthesizers-on-a-card that have them built in (LAPC-I is basically an MT-32 on an ISA card, for example, and SCC-1 is basically an SC-55 on an ISA card).

The cable needed will depend on the interface. SB16 will need a joystick port to MIDI cable, while most other options will have MIDI DIN jacks (I think).

(here's an odd thought, could a real DOS PC output MIDI, to a second PC running MUNT? 😜)

Theoretically. You'd need to connect the MIDI Out of an MPU-401 compatible interface on the DOS PC to the MIDI In of some interface on the Munt PC, then use some software (like MIDI Ox/Yoke) to route the MIDI In to the Munt Reloaded driver.

In the Win9x days (before VDMSound, before DOSBox) I was almost successful at using two Sound Blaster cards in the same computer to get Windows wavetable MIDI working for DOS games running in Windows using a similar approach, but I was unsuccessful because one of the cards was only a Sound Blaster 2.0 and therefore had some TTL MIDI I/O instead of MPU-401 compatible I/O.

I will! 😀 Just don't currently have the PC working in the studio room, once I get a chance to reinstall stuff to it I thought it'd be neat to do some really high quality renderings to see how they come out. (I have access to some other high end music hardware too but i'm guessing they wont have better general MIDI patches, it's all specialized things like Nord Leads, Moog micromodulars, and and yamaha formant synthesis stuff) Any requests for the soundtracks people would most want to hear? Those who helped me on stuff get first dibs of influence. 😀 (dont turn this into a giant request thread just send me a PM if you remember helping me on X project in any thread you've seen me do, when I eventually get those done i'll set up a requests thread if they turn out well)

I could probably make some suggestions. You could always make a new thread to take requests when you're ready.

On the subject of "correct" Roland hardware to play certain games. I found this site with a lot of recordings: http://www.wavetable.nl/?cat=8

For some reason with first-gen Roland GS hardware (SC-55, SCC-1) in DN3D Stalker the drums at the end just cut out. Now one could say it's due to polyphony limitations of those early modules and that the soundtrack was composed on SC-55MkII, but for whatever reason the recordings on youtube don't have this issue. SC-7 on that site sounds normal too. Probably something is wrong with these recordings...

d1stortion wrote:

On the subject of "correct" Roland hardware to play certain games. I found this site with a lot of recordings: http://www.wavetable.nl/?cat=8

this link is more user friendly
http://www.wavetable.nl/?cat=4

I had the same basic question as the OP, and now I have a thousand more 😁 But you guys are incredible, you know a whole lot and then some.

I will, however, ask only two: I bought a Roland UA-1X to interface with a future MIDI external module. Is it known to pass the SysEx extension? Can you interface with a MIDI external module in DOSBox in the same way it is done under ScummVM?

Scylla wrote:

Can you interface with a MIDI external module in DOSBox in the same way it is done under ScummVM?

Yes, I have done this.

DOSBox doesn't do anything but pass the MIDI data on to the synth, so in theory it should all sound the same as with a real computer. Strangely enough there were reports on this forum that what you hear with the emulator sounds different than on an authentic machine.

d1stortion wrote:

DOSBox doesn't do anything but pass the MIDI data on to the synth, so in theory it should all sound the same as with a real computer. Strangely enough there were reports on this forum that what you hear with the emulator sounds different than on an authentic machine.

I would be interested to hear recordings from someone who is able to test both ways.

I suppose I could put an ISA SB16 in my PIII-550 and dig out my old joystick-MIDI interface cable. I've never used that configuration for my Roland synths.

One example I write about here:
http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,2138.40.html
In game in dosbox you hear that guitar note too loud while in game on the real machine it is silent.

Anyway didn't know about other reports on this forum so am interested in links to that.

Is there a definitive list of games on:
MT-32 versus CM-32L (e.g. LAPC-I)?
SC-7 (e.g. RAP-10 / SC(D/M)-7 / SCB-7) versus SC-55 (e.g. SC(D/M)15 / SCB-55 / SCC-1A)?

Is the SCC-1 impacted?

Is there a definitive list of games that utilize true GS?

Is there a definitive list of games composed for SC-55(mkII) versus SC-88(pro)? Is the SC-55st affected?

Especially interested in the computer cards facts. I want to drop modules: too many wires, adapters, BOBs and so on.

Not definitive, but the best effort out there to date: Sound Driver Enhancement Hacks - General MIDI

Only a small handful of games used variation tones. The ones I personally saw target the SC-55, so you'd be fine with a SCC-1. A larger number used additional drum sets, which technically falls under the GS spec too, but Roland chose to support them even on GM-only products like the SC-7... some of them at least, you'd be missing ROOM, SFX and CM64/CM32L.

There is also a "newly discovered" minor difference between early and later SC-55 models... can't be bothered to explain it all now, given how you seem to like to read ancient topics I think you'll find the respective topic in no time 😀

I know about some Doom WADs utilizing the SC-88Pro, but that doesn't really count 😀

There's also this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_MT-32-co … _computer_games

Dear All,
I would recover that discussion as I want to buy the best MIDI synth at the moment available on the market to play on the maximum quality games under DosBox and ScummVM.

Really with no compromises... what should I buy?

I've already decided on trying to get an MT-32 (old) at a decent price, but I haven't decided between an SC-55 or SC-88. Is there any noticable differences between the two, when playing games that support GM (or the few that support GS).

And what kind of hardware would I have to buy, to connect both those to my 3 year old PC?

The SC-88 and newer have an SC-55mkII mode that has 100% compatibility as far as I know. I own an SC-88 and am very happy with it.

The SC-55mkII would be my first choice, but I'd pick an SC-88 or newer over a non-mkII SC-55.

You'll want to get a USB MIDI interface to connect it to a modern PC. I have M-Audio and E-mu (Creative) ones that work well enough, although the latter has SysEx data corruption issues when used with my MT-32. The USB MIDI interface will show up as a MIDI output device in Windows applications, including DOSBox and ScummVM.