ccarr690 wrote:

alexanrs wrote:

ccarr690 wrote:

ok,
well I would strongly suggest going into native dos and having the appropriate dos drivers for your hardware. When you say that windows doesnt need the mouse drivers and mscdex. to run a windows dosbox - thats because windows is already loading all of those drivers and utilizing memory that could be used for your game. If you check your available ram within your dosbox versus a native box. You will see a lot more available ram in the native dos mode. The goal in running dos apps is to get the most conventional and extended memory as possible out of the 640k.

Windows loads all that stuff out of the conventional memory it provides its DOS boxes, and extended memory is REALLY not an issue nowadays. Back in the day people used to drop down to DOS mode so their PCs with 8/16MB of RAM could run their DOS software better, nowadays we complain about the cacheable limits of old chipsets, because it is really easy to max out RAM. But no amount of memory helps if you run out of conventional RAM for DOS apps.
That being said, with a well built machine you can easily get over 600kB of conventional memory with all relevant drivers loaded in pure DOS, and as Windows' extended memory footprint is also irrelevant, as long as your games run well, you're fine. The only big issue would be GM, as without an external module or a daughterboard (which are pretty OS-agnostic), Windows drivers might provide better MIDI than in DOS for some sound cards.

It sounds like we are in agreement. SO I am not sure where the disconnect is?

As he said and i highlighted... With a well built machine configuration (friendly DOS hardware with friendly DOS drivers)... Which isn't always the case.

As he said, windows extended memory footprint isn't an issue nowadays, and as you said, the goal is get the max amount of conventional memory as you can. Under Windows is easier as soon as you're using only VXD drivers without any TSR loaded before windows boots, because Mouse and CDrom are managed entirely by the Windows VMM and the VXD driver complex, with no real mode drivers involved and no memory block usage in the 640K area.

I have never seen any performance increase when running a dos game within a windows dos shell. If a game was built to run in windows or within a dos shell window, then that would be the optimum place to run the game. Windows 98se was the last version of windows to run on top of dos and has the best dos version that was created. There are many apps and games that will not run in a dos window and will only run within a native dos mode. Especially if they are using real mode drivers. I have had the most luck and success running dos games and apps directly within dos. Of course that does require the proper system configuration as well as appropriate hardware drivers. In addition, if you wanted to run dos games within a windows dos shell and it didnt work. The first thing you should troubleshoot is if the game works properly within dos before attempting to make it work in windows. There are numerous games that require a line/variable setting in your autoexex.bat file that will allow the game to run directly in dos or within a dos windows shell. Typically the 'set blaster' variable needs to be properly set and configured in the autoexec regardless of which method you want to run your game.

Thats all I ever made was well built machines. 😀 . In any event. I have seen many dos apps running within a dos shell window that would not work properly unless you added the appropriate drivers, etc before windows launched or a lot of times you edit the bat file that runs when you open a command prompt. A good example is I remember one dos app that the mouse would not work in app when opened via a command prompt. the workaround was to initiate the dos mouse driver into high memory. Then when you opened the command prompt. the active dos shell had access to the dos driver and then the app worked.

This goes against what other people are saying about not needing a mouse driver because windows takes care of it. But I have seen this to be the solution. Adding the DOS mouse driver in high mem. This solution has also worked for various sound, modem, network, and graphics cards. So in the future, if you have trouble with one of your cards not working properly within a dos shell. Try leaving the call to the driver in your config or autoexec file. A lot of times this will resolve the issue. It doesnt hurt anyone to try this solution when having trouble.

One case where running apps in Windows would be better than DOS is the Creative SoundBlaster AWE cards. The AWE32/64 are fully compatible with FM and SFX, but its MIDI synth does not commuicate through the MPU401 port. The DOS drivers that redirect the MPU401 to the internal synth do not work with protected mode apps in DOS, but do so in Windows. In fact, even if the application supports the AWE cards natively, one might want to run them in Windows, because you can then use SoundFonts and GM, and some games do sound better with it.

Another thing is networking. IPX drivers can be a conventional memory hog, and Windows gives you that virtually for free.

My point is we are past the point we need to drop to DOS to save memory. I do play some stuff in pure DOS because I find it fun to do it that way, but I also start some stuff in Windows. In the end its all about using it the way you find the most satisfying, and if the OP wants to use Windows, it is not worse than just running stuff in DOS, as long as the games he wants to play run well.