VOGONS


First post, by jarreboum

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Ok I'm completely confused, I hope you guys can help me here.

I took my old K6 ATX rig out of storage to finally install a new fanless cooler. I probably should have tested if the computer was still working first, but I suppose I was too excited to be reasonable. Once installed I plugged the power cord and the computer started automatically. It also gave me a CMOS battery error. I unplugged the computer, changed the battery and plugged it again.

When I press the power button, the computer starts normally. But if I press the button again, the computer resets (the PSU fan runs full speed for a second), but doesn't show a picture. I don't have a reset button on this case. I tried with another PSU with the same result, except the display turns back on. I unplugged everything on the motherboard`and left only one RAM stick in, tried with both a USB and a PS/2 keyboard or none, same result.Now, if I plug the power button to the reset pins and press it, the computer correctly switches off. But doesn't switch back on, obviously.

tldr power pins turns computer on and resets, reset pins turns it off but not back on.

I can only assume that it's something in the BIOS, but I have no idea what. I really hope the motherboard isn't broken.

Reply 3 of 12, by jarreboum

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Some more puzzling info:

I booted Windows 98, and asked it to stop. it started its shutdown sequence correctly, then... rebooted, to a black screen.
I think it rules out the problematic wiring, as even a software shutdown doesn't work.

Reply 4 of 12, by Tetrium

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Time for some basic troubleshooting?

It may be anything. To rule out trying stuff while going into the wrong direction, you could dismantle and reassemble it (including reapplying TIM).
For all we know a bug may have died between the motherboard and motherboard tray (and if so, take some pics 😁) or the PSU may have developed bad caps or something dislodged itself while the rig was being moved.

It is more work than finding the culprit right away, but down the road chances will be good you will manage to fix almost anything that way (including problems you may not be aware about at this moment).

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 5 of 12, by jarreboum

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The thing is I'm not sure how to proceed. I did remove everything save for the CPU, PSU and a single RAM stick, which I tried in different positions. I tried with a different PSU with an almost identical result (the difference being the displays initialises correctly with the other PSU). From there, I don't know where to go, what to test. I checked the motherboard both sides but couldn't see any obvious problems. Not testing the unit before tinkering will haunt me. I tried disabling ACPI but it didn't have any immediate apparent effect.

Reply 7 of 12, by Tetrium

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jarreboum wrote:

The thing is I'm not sure how to proceed. I did remove everything save for the CPU, PSU and a single RAM stick, which I tried in different positions. I tried with a different PSU with an almost identical result (the difference being the displays initialises correctly with the other PSU). From there, I don't know where to go, what to test. I checked the motherboard both sides but couldn't see any obvious problems. Not testing the unit before tinkering will haunt me. I tried disabling ACPI but it didn't have any immediate apparent effect.

I can give you a step-by-step thingy if you'd like that.

First thing I do is to put the rig on a work bench (usually a table with ample space and basic stuff like a monitor, keyboard + mouse, power outlet with multiple sockets and enough power cords (I disconnect power completely from these outlets always BEFORE I start testing until I'm totally ready to apply power), spare know-to-be-working PSU (I use a couple PSUs for nothing else except for testing), motherboard box with NOT an antistatic bag on top of it, some empty boxes (with a stack of plenty antistatic bags), screwdrivers and other equipment (maybe even an antistatic wrist strap), a few mugs or something for putting very small items like screws and standoffs that I may remove from the case, my basic testing parts (I use some spare Virge or Trio and some lowly GF MX AGP and a few other cards + a couple cheap but know-to-be-working test CPUs that are may fry to death without me missing them (Celeron 300 or Pentium MMX 166 or Celeron Coppermine 600Mhz or so) + memory modules of the kinds that I may need like 32MB SDRAM PC-100, 64MB PC-133, 2x4MB FPM or EDO, 128/256MB DDR-400 etc etc), TIM, stuff to clean stuff (paper towels + rubbing alcohol), spare cables like IDE and floppy cables...and last but not least I'll have a couple ballpoint pens and a stack of sheets of paper for writing down stuff. And I'll have some paper tape in case I want to mark certain expansion cards (I'll usually stick this to that L-shaped bracket that every ISA/PCI/AGP card has).

Very first! ...I'll go read the manual and write down all important settings like jumpers and I'll often even draw a scematic of the entire motherboard including the front panel pins (especially the PW_SW, RST_SW and PW_LED).

First I'll open up the system and put it on its side on the work bench. Sometimes I'll first remove the BIOS battery and let it drain for a couple days maybe, but it depends on how much I am in a hurry to continue working on that board.
Then I'll start removing parts and I put them in antistatic bags and place them all together (so I know which parts came out of this particular system).
Perhaps I'll remove some optical drives and some cables and remove/unplug everything that will prevent me from removing the motherboard from its case.

I'll put the motherboard onto the motherboard box and first remove ALL parts like CPU+HSF and basically all cables (especially loose IDE cables and such) and perhaps the BIOS battery (I'll make sure the BIOS is reset one way or another, especially if the board is 'new' and untested).

The first thing I do is install the CPU, clean both CPU and HSF, make sure both are dry and then apply TIM + install HSF + plug in heatsink fan into the CPU header on the motherboard.

Then insert VGA cable into the motherboard and if no onboard VGA a testing graphics card (usually I'll start with a PCI card), one memory module of correct FSB (or 2 if the motherboard requires pairs etc), PC-speaker for the error beeps, keyboard and PSU.

Then I'll do a final check to see if all loose other cables are gone and everything is in order and I'll check which front panel pins I need to short to start the motherboard (I've used both a switch I had removed from a binned ATX case and a flatbed screwdriver (do not do this is you have shaky hands or are tired or with poor lighting etc)).

Before applying power I will make sure everything else is switched to "off" like on the back side of the PSU etc and make sure no alien objects are on any of the hardware that's not supposed to be there (like a screw you overlooked sitting on the motherboard or some other stupid-ass thing 🤣. Lets face it, we all did something like this 😜)

Then I'll switch the power plug box thingy on, see for a moment what happens (usually nothing but it helps to see if anything funny happens), switch on the power box that contains the monitor and the PSU, then switch on the switch of the PSU itself.

I do check for smoke of sounds or other funny stuff every step of the way.

Take a deep breath, as it may be your last breath before switching on the motherboard (but lets hope not 😉)

Switch it on and keep one hand very close to the switch of the main power plug (so you can cut power to everything) and (again) watch out for signs of malfunction and see what gets displayed and hear the beeps from the PC speaker...and you basically go from there.

Well it was something like this right?

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
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Reply 8 of 12, by jarreboum

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Some new development:

Today I plugged the power cable, I heard a fzzt and the led on my CF adapter blinked. This PSU didn't last long.

The motherboard still works with my spare PSU, but I can now say that I had a flaky PSU from the start. I can't conclude anything but I will believe that it did something to the motherboard when I powered the computer yesterday, before dying on me today. I'm now looking for a new motherboard, as well as a new PSU.

Last edited by jarreboum on 2017-03-10, 18:31. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 10 of 12, by jarreboum

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I thought it would be an all or nothing, a fried PSU taking the motherboard with it, not a weird power button problem like that. There's probably a cap or a resistor along the way that doesn't behave properly and giving me these problems, but it's way above my debugging skills.

Reply 11 of 12, by Tetrium

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jarreboum wrote:

Some more puzzling info:

I booted Windows 98, and asked it to stop. it started its shutdown sequence correctly, then... rebooted, to a black screen.
I think it rules out the problematic wiring, as even a software shutdown doesn't work.

jarreboum wrote:

Some new development:

Today I plugged the power cable, I heard a fzzt and the led on my CF adapter blinked. This PSU didn't last long.

The motherboard still works with my spare PSU, but I can now say that I had a flaky PSU from the start. I can't conclude anything but I will believe that it did something to the motherboard when I powered the computer yesterday, before dying on me today. I'm now looking for a new motherboard, as well as a new PSU.

So is your motherboard dead now? The fact that your PSU died doesn't guarantee it killed other components along with it (and this is one good reason to never use PSUs of poor quality, I've seen malfunctioning bad PSUs taking out motherboards on several occasions whilst the better quality PSUs tended to let more stuff keep their lives).

This is the reason why I start troubleshooting ASAP in case I suspect a hardware failure or an imminent hardware failure as this may prevent a cascade of hardware death. I'll even inspect any untouched system that I haven't used or even moved around in a while.

So did your PSU develop bulging/leaking caps while it was in storage? And what brand was your PSU?

But anyway, this won't help you know.
Are you sure the motherboard is gone? My Celly 400 motherboard came out of a system which had its PSU burn out (black stuff out of the back of the PSU) and I used my Celeron 400 for several years as a main rig actually. It had some oddnesses but these did not worsen as time went by and stability also didn't seem to be affected.
Imo the PSU is teh most important part of any rig.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 12 of 12, by jarreboum

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The motherboard isn't gone, it's in the same state as before, with broken power and reset switches. I could use it that way but it's a hassle, and troubleshooting it is out of my range. It's a shame, as it's a great motherboard that I enjoyed using.