Hey guys,
I finally bit the bullet and am building a dedicated retro PC. Even after reading through many resources, I still feel a little bit unsure and would appreciate feedback to my plan.
I hope this thread is not against the rules; I haven't really found guidelines about this.
Originally I wanted to build the PC for Adlib music tracking, but the more I researched I found out that I can build a pretty compatible system for 386 -> Pentium I era.
So my plan is to use a Pentium 233MMX, since the newest games I want to play (Tonic Trouble/Rayman 2) have this in the specs. But I am unsure if it gets slow enough with the cache disabling for 386 and 486 games.
GFX: Riva TNT2 M64, since it has very good compatibility and is the fasted PCI card according to PCI Graphics Roundup - DOS
I want to leave space for a Voodoo 2 or 3, in case I ever find a good deal
Sound: I have a CT2940, which I am excited about. I will again leave space for a GUS and will buy a generic soundcard for Win98 stuff. Space for connecting a Roland Sound Canvas would also be nice, but is not a must.
Mostly I am unsure about the CPU. I don't know if I should just do a Slot-1 build instead for way more choice in the graphics department, but on the other hand I really don't want to sacrifice more DOS compatibility.
I would be really thankful about your experiences with similar systems or notes about the build (maybe I am not seeing something critical)
Your Pentium will definitely slow down enough as I can play Monkey Island on my Pentium 3 450MHz with the cache disabled.
The TNT2 M64 is the cut down version of the TNT2 in terms of acceleration (not that that matters in DOS). It certainly isn't the fastest PCI card (something like the Nvidia 6200 might hold that claim) and I wouldn't spend lots of money on an M64!
From my 5 minute research I found conflicting reports on whether the CT2940 has a real OPL chip? If you're doing Adlib music, you want a real OPL chip.
To be honest I would go for a Slot 1 build instead.
- Pure Dos works just fine.
- Windows 98 will probably be a bit quicker due to faster everything, and allows you to play a wider range of games should you want to.
- Works with modern, silent ATX powersupplies (good for your music plans)
- Fits in modern ATX cases
- BX440 chipset motherboards with ISA slots are expensive but no more expensive than Socket 7
- A Pentium 2 CPU with cooler will be cheap. Later Pentium 2's can be cooled passively/silently which is good for your music ambitions; On one of my first visits to Vogons I remember reading that "a Pentium 2 can be cooled by an occasional fart wafting across it". Mount a modern but slow (1000rpm or something) 120mm fan in your modern case and aim it at the CPU. You can upgrade your CPU to 7/8/900MHz and beyond you get a good board, a "slocket" to mount a Socket 370 CPU or get very lucky and find a fast Slot 1 CPU.
- SD RAM is super cheap and you would only need 1x 128mb or 256mb stick.
- Slot 1 supports AGP. You can get a basic AGP card, like your M64, very cheaply for AGP. If you want more power you can get something like a Nvidia ti4200.
- Your soundcard should be fine in DOS and Windows 98. You can add a SB Live if you want EAX in Windows games.
I’ve started with Pentium MMX as my first build four years ago and has since moved on to faster systems. My sweet spot seems to be Slot1 (in my signature). Here are some things that I’ve learned for myself:
- CPU speed issues tend to be exaggerated. Often there is some way around it. But if you don’t have enough performance there is simply nothing you can do;
- Socket 7 is not really more compatible than Slot1. When I’ve started building retro rigs, Socket 7 was often recommended as the most versatile platform for late DOS and Win9x. Really, it should have been Pentium II/III;
- ATX is awesome. Especially if you want to put in multiple sound and video cards. Every slot is free for a full length card whereas AT is often pretty cramped with slots being obstructed by a CPU socket, drive cages and so on.
That being said, I’m constantly tweaking my secondary retro rig and classic Pentiums are a nice option for that. I’m a fan of Intel-made ATX boards as they are very stable, well documented and have some built-in slowdown options. They do have limitations, though — like maximum HDD limit, support for non-Intel CPUs and tweak options (like memory timings or FSB overclocking). But I probably wouldn’t want Socket7 as the only system.
The issues with ATX are mostly about aesthetics. Beige ATX cases haven’t really changed in all the 24 years they’ve been around, so to me they mostly don’t look “retro”. Also, compared to your typical babyAT case most full ATX enclosures are huge.
Moer wrote:Hey guys,
I finally bit the bullet and am building a dedicated retro PC. Even after reading through many resources, I still feel […] Show full quote
Hey guys,
I finally bit the bullet and am building a dedicated retro PC. Even after reading through many resources, I still feel a little bit unsure and would appreciate feedback to my plan.
I hope this thread is not against the rules; I haven't really found guidelines about this.
Originally I wanted to build the PC for Adlib music tracking, but the more I researched I found out that I can build a pretty compatible system for 386 -> Pentium I era.
So my plan is to use a Pentium 233MMX, since the newest games I want to play (Tonic Trouble/Rayman 2) have this in the specs. But I am unsure if it gets slow enough with the cache disabling for 386 and 486 games.
GFX: Riva TNT2 M64, since it has very good compatibility and is the fasted PCI card according to PCI Graphics Roundup - DOS
I want to leave space for a Voodoo 2 or 3, in case I ever find a good deal
Sound: I have a CT2940, which I am excited about. I will again leave space for a GUS and will buy a generic soundcard for Win98 stuff. Space for connecting a Roland Sound Canvas would also be nice, but is not a must.
Mostly I am unsure about the CPU. I don't know if I should just do a Slot-1 build instead for way more choice in the graphics department, but on the other hand I really don't want to sacrifice more DOS compatibility.
I would be really thankful about your experiences with similar systems or notes about the build (maybe I am not seeing something critical)
When it comes to speed adjustable platforms it is really a whole rabbit hole you can go down.
A pentium MMX build is great. If you aren't worried about speed, than you can run it at 66mhz FSB all day long and users jumpers and software to disable caches and lower the multiplier. At 50mhz fsb, a pentium can hit roughly 386SX 25mhz speeds, which is damn slow. A pentium (non MMX) model can get even a bit slower. A pentium 233 is fast enough for Duke 3D at 640x480, although system shock at high res and a couple other games might feel less than perfectly smooth (but totally playable). Quake in software mode will be probably the only game you shouldn't run at high resolution.
In terms of absolute flexibility, an Ezra Via C3 CPU with a slotket adapter on a Slot 1 board compatible with a setfsb utility is the most flexible. That setup can hit ever speed point between a slower 386 all the way to a fast pentium II (or even better), all with software utilities and without requiring reboots. It isn't quite as expensive as an SS7 system these days, but it also isn't particularly cheap either. I and others on the forum can help you with parts if that strikes your fancy. I have a similar Via C3 Nehemiah setup right now, and this is how it does. The Nehemiah is faster than the Ezra but it needs throttle.exe in order to hit 486 speeds, which is not totally ideal:
The cheapest and simplest solution IMO is to get a slot 1 or socket 370 board with a pentium 3, and use setmul to disabled caches. A p3 with caches disabled is about the same speed as a fast 386. You can also use throttle.exe to get closer to pentium and 486 speeds. The amount of DOS games that are actually speed sensitive isn't all that high, there is always dosbox for the really finicky games, and no matter what system you use you will probably run into one kind of compatibility issue or another anyway - there is no perfect DOS machine.
The last option is a K6+ processor on a SS7 board, which is are both rather expensive and I am personally of the opinion that SS7 boards are not of particularly good quality. A k6 III+ will get you everything from a ~386DX25 to a pentium II 400mhz.
For GPUs, if DOS is your aim than any S3 card will work great. They aren't expensive or hard to find. If you also want to do some windows gaming, then pair it with a voodoo accelerator or perhaps consider a Voodoo 3 or a Voodoo Banshee.
Sound is a whole other discussion, but in general get an ISA card. You can get a real sound blaster pro/16 or we can recommend you some good clones.
Thank you so much for all the answers and insight.
I already have the CT2940 and it does have a real OPL3 chip. Although it seems a bit small; might me the -L variant? Adding a Sound Blaster Live for EAX sounds like a good fit.
You guys convinced me to go with an Slot 1 build. Using a more modern power supply gives me also more peace of mind.
I actually found a rather affordable VIA C3 Ezra(1.35V) 800Mhz and a really cheap 'Slot 1 to PGA 370' adapter V1.2. So I would only need to add a fan.
What do I need to look out for in a motherboard? If I could chose freely I would like 3 ISA slots for 'future proofing'. I found Gigabyte GA-686LXR for an ok price, which seems to almost fit the bill, but only supports 66MHz Slot 1. Micro ATX is enticing though.
For graphics card, I am still leaning towards a TNT2, since it's been tested (https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/). For AGP the TNT2 Pro seems affordable. The Voodoo and GUS will have to wait for a while, unless I get a really lucky deal.
Thank you again. I already feel more confident in these choices
Not all motherboards will play nice with a slotket adapter. In general, any board that is compatible with Tualatin will work with any socket 370 CPU.
Some motherboards can have their FSB speed controlled in software. IMO this is the gold standard. With a board like this, you can use software to control the multiplier, caches, and bus speed without having to reboot or fiddle in the bios.
Even without this feature though, you can get pretty far with a fixed FSB (66mhz ideally), and you can always change the FSB with jumpers or dip switches.
The only board I know for sure that works this way is the Gigabyte GA-BXC. In particular the second board revision (REV 2.0 printed in between the ISA slots). This is a picture from an ebay listing I bought earlier this year:
This layout of this board is similar to a lot of ATX machines. There are three PCI slots and two ISA slots, with a shared PCI/ISA slot in the middle. You can use up to seven expansion cards including AGP. AGP is 3.3v I believe, so you will want to make sure that any AGP card you get works with that standard or is universal. I think Geforce 4 cards and earlier fall into that category, as do the voodoo AGP cards.
I would also consider an Nehemiah processor if you want to do more windows gaming. It can actually get slower than the Ezra (mine can get down to almost a 386SX16mhz without throttle) and it has as a much more powerful FPU, which makes its a lot better in games like Quake. I can get 60+ fps in the Quake benchmark, in software mode, at 640x480. The Ezra will get somewhere around 35fps running at full speed. Another option, since slot card CPUs are easy to install and remove, is to get a second sloket adapter and a faster coppermine P3, and just swap in the faster CPU when you need more performance.
That board seems to tick all my boxes, thank you for the recommendation.
I found a Rev2 one and will try to get it.
I found a 1200MHz Nehemia for the same price as the Ezra, so since I won't really lose anything I'll take this one instead. It's nice to have more options in the future but anything post Rayman 2 isn't really a priority for me.
I am not sure on what to search for to find a heatsink or fan fitting on the Socket 370 adapter card. Could you point me in the right direction there? Is passive cooling an option?
If I understand the manual of the board correctly ("66 MHz AGP bus speed. (2X mode 133MHz)"), I have to downgrade my graphics card to a TNT1.
Thank you again. I can't wait to build this thing.
Any socket 7 or 370 cooler will work. Nehemiah runs really cool. You could probably get away with passive if you wanted too.
If you search "socket 370 cooler" there are lots of options. One of the smaller ones will do just fine.
For a slotket adapter, I would recommend searching for the following:
MSI MS-6905 MS 6905 Master V2 CPU Converter Adapter Intel Slot 1 Socket 370
I would link directly to the ebay listing, but that is frowned upon here.
Another good option for a GPU is the Geforce MX440 or MX460. A S3 Savage 4 can sometimes be found for dirt cheap. They aren't great GPUs for windows, but the DOS comparability is excellent.
I am a bit confused. The manual of the board (https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-6BXC/ … #support-manual) says that the speeds are configured with dip switches, not software.
Also that the AGP slot is only 2x and the Geforce cards you recommended seem 4x according to Wikipedia.
I am not too knowledgeable with old builds, am I something missing here? What card did you put in yours?
Edit: The Voodoo 3 series may be expensive but seems to fit for AGP 2x and excellent DOS compatibility
The FSB is controlled with a third party software utility. It isn't an officially supported feature. It works on some boards and not others, but I can't tell you what the reason is.
Which will set the bus speed of the bus to 66mhz. That board can go down to as low as 50mhz, but my processor will lock up if I set a multiplier lower than 7 at that bus speed. 66mhz and higher bus speeds are stable at all multipliers for me.
You can use this to control caches on the VIA process
1setmul L1D BPD ICD 4
This command will disable L1 cache, branch prediction, and instruction cache, and set the multiplier of the chip to 4x. "L1E" will enable L1 cach, and so forth.
Throttle will use ACPI clock skipping to effectively reduce your clock speed by multiples of 1/8th. Using throttle, SMB, and setmul I can achieve speeds on my machine of as slow as an 8088. For Nehemiah processors, you need throttle in order to approximate most 486 speeds, as disabling the instruction cache puts you in 386 territory, while disabling branch prediction only puts you at 486DX4 100mhz or higher speeds. Note that some software doesn't respond as well to throttling, so it isn't as good of a speed emulation as the Ezra processors, which can hit 486 speeds without needing throttle. The only specific examples I know of are PC demos, but it might effect some speed sensitive games.
Note that throttle will also disable L1 cache with a setting of 4 or higher ( I think...). The order of commands I use are throttle, setmul, and SMB. You can also create batch scripts and run them that way, and name them for a speed profile, like "386DX33.bat" or something similar, or have batch scripts for specific games.
When it comes to AGP, the thing to look out for is voltage. Your's and my board are 3.3v. You can tell by the keying in the slot
See the notches in the graphics cards? The position of those notches indicate what kind of voltages the card can accept. You want to buy a graphics card with keying for 3.3v. This was the standard for older AGP cards. Geforce 4 cards are usually universal (has keying for 3.3v and 1.5v). If you buy the wrong card, it shouldn't even fit the slot. If you did manage to make it fit though, it could fry the card or maybe even the traces on the motherboard. Best not to try!
I am currently using an IBM Number 9 Savage 4 Xtreme graphics cards.
This handy chart might be useful. It is a matrix of graphics card and compatibility with particularly finicky DOS games. Part of the reason people recommend voodoo 3's so much is because the 2d core on that graphics card also happens to be highly compatible with DOS, in addition to glide support.
Thank you again for the in-depth information
I think that about covers everything. So I am ready to order the rest of my parts.
I'll take a few more days to decide between the Ezra/Nehemiah and research what kind of RAM & PSU wattage I need.
Thank you again, this build got so much better. I cannot wait to try it out
PSU and RAM isn't complicated. Any ATX PSU with 20 pin or 20+4 pin connector will do fine. You can also buy 24 pin to 20 pin adapters. Much of the power is on the 5v rails, but the whole system will consume maybe 50 watts. I am using a PSU with 20 amps on 5v and I haven't had any problems. Some PSUs have only 15 amps on the 5v rails which might be cutting it a bit close.
RAM is even simpler. You want SRAM that is rated for 133mhz. I have a 512mb DIMM in mine but it only recognizes half of that capacity. A single stick of 256mb is more than enough.
