VOGONS


Ultimate 386 system?

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First post, by nzoomed

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I think I scored this nice board out of the skip bin!
I cleaned it up, replaced the battery and it works.
Currently ive installed 16MB of RAM in it, and added a 3CA7 Math processor.
Other improvements are I want to add more cache to its maximum 256K.
Will this board support low latency 12ns cache timings?
I think this must be one of ASUS's earliest products.
I also have an ASUS ISA-386 which has an onboard PQFP CPU with SiS chipsets and I believe was their first motherboard they introduced to the market.

Any other improvements or addons you recommend?
I could max it out to 32MB of RAM but would be an overkill 🤣

FWWfWoU.jpg

Reply 1 of 37, by Horun

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Yes it is early Asus, the ISA-386c was there first according to Asus themselves: https://www.asus.com/Microsite/mb/ASUSMB1st/index.aspx
If you have one then you are one of Three here at Vogons that I know do own one. Great find on the ISA-386U3, it is one of their 6 only 386 boards afaik

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 2 of 37, by maxtherabbit

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It's working with 2MB SIMMs?

Reply 3 of 37, by Anonymous Coward

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Indeed that is a nice motherboard.

What constitutes an "ultimate" 386 is really up to you.
A lot of the more extreme features were really not part of the 386 era (VLB, hybrid CPUs 64-bit ISA graphics adapters), and some people consider them blasphemy.
Personally, I think a few exotic features are needed to make it more interesting.
Your board is a solid choice for an ultimate 386 in my opinion.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 5 of 37, by rmay635703

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 00:21:

It's working with 2MB SIMMs?

From his picture no

2mb are 6 chip or 18 chip and usually double sided, most boards don’t have enough space to use them.

Only time I’ve seen them was in an old laser printer.

One of my 486 boards that had “32 pin sockets” listed In the manual that it supported 512kb and 2mb SIMMs, I never have really found them for sale (even back in the day)

Reply 6 of 37, by Horun

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rmay635703 wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:19:
From his picture no […]
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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 00:21:

It's working with 2MB SIMMs?

From his picture no

2mb are 6 chip or 18 chip and usually double sided, most boards don’t have enough space to use them.

Only time I’ve seen them was in an old laser printer

Yep ! Also seen them used in some old Mac's like early Performa's and they were double sided big chip.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 7 of 37, by maxtherabbit

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nzoomed wrote on 2020-07-18, 23:39:

Currently ive installed 16MB of RAM in it,

🤔

Reply 8 of 37, by Horun

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:57:
nzoomed wrote on 2020-07-18, 23:39:

Currently ive installed 16MB of RAM in it,

🤔

Hehee am sure he put 4 x 4Mb in it after the picture was taken with 8 x 1Mb. If not we need good pics of those ram sticks ;p

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 9 of 37, by rmay635703

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Horun wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:23:
rmay635703 wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:19:
From his picture no […]
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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 00:21:

It's working with 2MB SIMMs?

From his picture no

2mb are 6 chip or 18 chip and usually double sided, most boards don’t have enough space to use them.

Only time I’ve seen them was in an old laser printer

Yep ! Also seen them used in some old Mac's like early Performa's and they were double sided big chip.

It’s like finding a 1mb 72-pin SIMM,
They do exist but are extraordinarily rare

Horun wrote on 2020-07-19, 02:18:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:57:
nzoomed wrote on 2020-07-18, 23:39:

Currently ive installed 16MB of RAM in it,

🤔

Hehee am sure he put 4 x 4Mb in it after the picture was taken with 8 x 1Mb. If not we need good pics of those ram sticks ;p

Not pictured 8mb ISA Memory expansion card

Reply 10 of 37, by Horun

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rmay635703 wrote on 2020-07-19, 02:20:

Not pictured 8mb ISA Memory expansion card

🤣 well that extra 8Mb running at 8Mhz will be much slower than changing to 4x 4Mb simms.

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 11 of 37, by nzoomed

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Horun wrote on 2020-07-19, 00:09:

Yes it is early Asus, the ISA-386c was there first according to Asus themselves: https://www.asus.com/Microsite/mb/ASUSMB1st/index.aspx
If you have one then you are one of Three here at Vogons that I know do own one. Great find on the ISA-386U3, it is one of their 6 only 386 boards afaik

This board must have been only a year or two later (im guessing somewhere round 1992/1993 perhaps)
My ISA-386 looks near identical to the ISA-386C board shown in the link, I think the only difference is the absence of the slot for taking a memory card.

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-07-19, 00:37:
Indeed that is a nice motherboard. […]
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Indeed that is a nice motherboard.

What constitutes an "ultimate" 386 is really up to you.
A lot of the more extreme features were really not part of the 386 era (VLB, hybrid CPUs 64-bit ISA graphics adapters), and some people consider them blasphemy.
Personally, I think a few exotic features are needed to make it more interesting.
Your board is a solid choice for an ultimate 386 in my opinion.

I agree, I think as far as 386 systems go, its a good motherboard.
I dont know if a VLB graphics card would even work TBH on a 386, ive got an OPTI 495SLC motherboard that is a dual socket board that can either take a 386 or a 486, I have not even tried to see what happens with a VLB card on that board.
I was sure I had a tseng ET4000 ISA graphics card somewhere, but i cant seem to find it!
What would be the best graphics card for this type of system?
I have a bunch of cirrus logic, oak technology, realtek and Trident graphics cards.

Other thing I was going to ask, was the currently installed AMD DX-40 the fastest 386 CPU made? I believe it was to the best of my knowledge.
I could install a texas instruments 486 processor that is designed for installing into 386 systems with slower bus speeds, etc, but then its not really a 386 anymore 🤣

Horun wrote on 2020-07-19, 02:18:
maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-07-19, 01:57:
nzoomed wrote on 2020-07-18, 23:39:

Currently ive installed 16MB of RAM in it,

🤔

Hehee am sure he put 4 x 4Mb in it after the picture was taken with 8 x 1Mb. If not we need good pics of those ram sticks ;p

Sorry, my mistake, yes I currently have 4x4MB sticks installed, when I took the photo, it had 8x1MB installed

Reply 12 of 37, by Anonymous Coward

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Cirrus Logic CL GD5434 is currently considered the best all around choice for systems with only ISA slots. What it comes down to is if you care about running Windows at something better than 640x480x256. 386s won't really need anything better than that, unless you just want to play around (I like to). The CL GD5434 is pretty much the fastest option for DOS, and provides pretty decent accelerated graphics for Windows if you have 2MB installed. Currently these are a little pricey, but somebody is working on a homebrew card. Other cards like the ET4000, Trident 8900D and WD90C31 offer similarly fast DOS graphics but fall short in Windows. I believe they are all fairly decent choices compatibility wise. You might be able to get these a lot cheaper too. I think the other CL GD542x cards are supposed to be good in DOS as well, but I've never owned one so I can't comment.

386 CPUs can indeed work with VLB, but I don't think you get much of a performance boost until you pair it with a 486DLC type CPU.

"Will the highways on the internets become more few?" -Gee Dubya
V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium

Reply 13 of 37, by 386SX

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Indeed a great looking mainboard. But I was thinking it to be manufactured a bit later and instead I see like most ISA only 386 late mainboards are mostly built around 1992. Anyway, clean layout, great that it has the Socket only option instead of the QFPA plastic package I don't like at all.. my mainboard got both and I suspect I'll never known if I'll be able to ever use the PGA-132 socket at all. Ceramic larger package vs plastic cheap ones.. no comparison.
Anyway as other said there's no much thing to do for an Utilmate 386 if not passing the "486 line" with the upgrade module/alternative solutions like the Cyrix and overclocking in my opinion would be out of discussion on such old rare cards.
Find the fastest genuine ram and cache module you can, a time correct late 520MB disk as I did, and for the vga, considering the GD5434 is not easy to find (but also this mainboard I suspect was not), I'd vote for the GD5429 card, still rare in the ISA version, I got one dated 12/1995, 1MB DRAM 60ns, and it has higher core clock and I/O memory Mapped BitBLT engine. In Windows its acceleration is good for a 386, tested with Windows 95 it's using by default the same driver package of the GD543x line and the windows are drawn quite immediately when moving around thanks to the internal acceleration. In Win 3.x I had a bit more problems with the drivers so it may be or not easy to use the right drivers for this specific chip and I ended up using the GD5428 drivers, working ok a bit slower than the original GD5429 you'd find online.

Reply 14 of 37, by jesolo

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If you just want to stick with a 386 CPU, then I would say you have the best all round 386 system (yes, there were upgrades and alternatives, but I'm referring to a just "real" 386).
Personally, I think that 16 MB might already be overkill for a 386 (most people back in the day had to do with only 4 MB). I think that having 8 MB should be a good balance (especially for a DOS/Win 3.1x setup).
However, if you intend on installing Windows 95 on there, then 16 MB will definitely help.

An ET4000 was definitely one of the fastest ISA cards available during that time period, but as already stated, a Cirrus Logic based card is also a good and fast choice. Even a CL-GD5426 or CL-GD5428 should also perform quite well on this motherboard.

Having said that, if you want to squeeze a bit more performance out of this motherboard and not totally go overboard, then you could try the Cyrix (or Texas Instruments) 486DLC-40 (or the later 486SXL variant). The additional 1KB of L1 cache makes a bit of difference performance wise, provided that your BIOS properly supports the Cyrix based CPU's. Otherwise, you will have to use the relevant software utility to enable the onboard L1 cache.

Reply 15 of 37, by nzoomed

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Anonymous Coward wrote on 2020-07-19, 12:43:

Cirrus Logic CL GD5434 is currently considered the best all around choice for systems with only ISA slots. What it comes down to is if you care about running Windows at something better than 640x480x256. 386s won't really need anything better than that, unless you just want to play around (I like to). The CL GD5434 is pretty much the fastest option for DOS, and provides pretty decent accelerated graphics for Windows if you have 2MB installed. Currently these are a little pricey, but somebody is working on a homebrew card. Other cards like the ET4000, Trident 8900D and WD90C31 offer similarly fast DOS graphics but fall short in Windows. I believe they are all fairly decent choices compatibility wise. You might be able to get these a lot cheaper too. I think the other CL GD542x cards are supposed to be good in DOS as well, but I've never owned one so I can't comment.

386 CPUs can indeed work with VLB, but I don't think you get much of a performance boost until you pair it with a 486DLC type CPU.

Thats good to know, i need to go through my box of cards and take note of the models. Im bound to have something with those chipsets you quote.
Homebrew cards sound exciting, I guess alot is possible with FGPA's these days!
I guess I probably only care about maxing the system out with the tech of its era, more for fun and curosity's sake to build an expensive machine for its day and push the limits 🤣

386SX wrote on 2020-07-19, 15:07:

Indeed a great looking mainboard. But I was thinking it to be manufactured a bit later and instead I see like most ISA only 386 late mainboards are mostly built around 1992. Anyway, clean layout, great that it has the Socket only option instead of the QFPA plastic package I don't like at all.. my mainboard got both and I suspect I'll never known if I'll be able to ever use the PGA-132 socket at all. Ceramic larger package vs plastic cheap ones.. no comparison.
Anyway as other said there's no much thing to do for an Utilmate 386 if not passing the "486 line" with the upgrade module/alternative solutions like the Cyrix and overclocking in my opinion would be out of discussion on such old rare cards.
Find the fastest genuine ram and cache module you can, a time correct late 520MB disk as I did, and for the vga, considering the GD5434 is not easy to find (but also this mainboard I suspect was not), I'd vote for the GD5429 card, still rare in the ISA version, I got one dated 12/1995, 1MB DRAM 60ns, and it has higher core clock and I/O memory Mapped BitBLT engine. In Windows its acceleration is good for a 386, tested with Windows 95 it's using by default the same driver package of the GD543x line and the windows are drawn quite immediately when moving around thanks to the internal acceleration. In Win 3.x I had a bit more problems with the drivers so it may be or not easy to use the right drivers for this specific chip and I ended up using the GD5428 drivers, working ok a bit slower than the original GD5429 you'd find online.

Doing a quick google search, i dont think i have the ISA version of that card looking at the photos, but very possible I have the VL bus version.
I will see what RAM I can find, I think 50ns is the fastest you typically find FP memory, and is very rare, I can probably get a bunch of 60ns RAM for it easily enough.
I have a few 520MB Seagate drives I can choose from, and have a creative soundblaster for it too.

jesolo wrote on 2020-07-19, 20:38:
If you just want to stick with a 386 CPU, then I would say you have the best all round 386 system (yes, there were upgrades and […]
Show full quote

If you just want to stick with a 386 CPU, then I would say you have the best all round 386 system (yes, there were upgrades and alternatives, but I'm referring to a just "real" 386).
Personally, I think that 16 MB might already be overkill for a 386 (most people back in the day had to do with only 4 MB). I think that having 8 MB should be a good balance (especially for a DOS/Win 3.1x setup).
However, if you intend on installing Windows 95 on there, then 16 MB will definitely help.

An ET4000 was definitely one of the fastest ISA cards available during that time period, but as already stated, a Cirrus Logic based card is also a good and fast choice. Even a CL-GD5426 or CL-GD5428 should also perform quite well on this motherboard.

Having said that, if you want to squeeze a bit more performance out of this motherboard and not totally go overboard, then you could try the Cyrix (or Texas Instruments) 486DLC-40 (or the later 486SXL variant). The additional 1KB of L1 cache makes a bit of difference performance wise, provided that your BIOS properly supports the Cyrix based CPU's. Otherwise, you will have to use the relevant software utility to enable the onboard L1 cache.

Yes 16MB is probably an overkill, let alone 32MB.
Ive read posts here where people are installing stacks of RAM and then loading everything onto a ramdrive on bootup, could be interesting to play around with, as I bet games load real fast off the ramdrive.
I doubt I will install windows 95 on it, it runs terrible on a 386 🤣
Good to know the cirrus logic cards are good, ill take a look and see what the best model I have is.

Reply 16 of 37, by nzoomed

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Quick update:
Been going through the cards and have found an Octek AVGA-20H with a cirrus logic CL GD5420 chip
Ive also found a Vesa card with a GD5428 chipset which is not much use in this machine but may be good for my 486.

Got a bunch of various oak, trident and reaktek cards that I now understand are mostly a waste of time as far as performance goes.

I have some WD90C30 cards which look like they also could be a good candidate.

Reply 17 of 37, by pshipkov

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Really like the look of these ASUS 386 mobos.
I put the date to market of this one somewhere between late 1993 and first half of 1994.
If you dont care about period correctness then ISA GD-5434 will be a good fit, quite expensive these days.
Otherwise a "cheapo" et4000/w32i will be just as good I think.

This UMC chipset is not super fast, post some perf data if you can, it will be good to see how it does over there.

retro bits and bytes

Reply 18 of 37, by Pierre32

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Not trying to hijack, but since ISA-386C boards came up, I might as well dump my specs. Some might consider this an ultimate build. In truth, they were just the parts the universe threw at me!

Tseng ET4000AX - listing this first because it started the whole mess. I saw it on FB for pennies, so I grabbed it for 'some future build'
Asus ISA-386C with 486DX/40 - the only 386 mobo on Gumtree, found 17 pages deep. I didn't realise how good a score it was until later.
i387 copro - ok, I went out of my way for this one just because.
20MB RAM - I only meant to thow 8MB in, but there were some surprise 4MB sticks in a bulk lot!
Addonics A151-830 (YMF701) sound - from the spares box
GUS classic 1MB - threw out a hail mary 'WTB' on a forum, and someone said 'Yeah I have one.' That was unexpected.

I'm no expert, but happy to answer any questions on the setup. And look forward to seeing your build come together. 😀

Reply 19 of 37, by amadeus777999

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That's one great looking board.
What software do you use it for?