megatron-uk wrote on 2021-05-26, 07:18:

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-25, 23:44:

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-25, 21:54:

Back around 1995 I was working at a computer education training center where they taught a networking basics class. We had the c […]
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Back around 1995 I was working at a computer education training center where they taught a networking basics class.
We had the computers wired up with Coax and Ethernet for training purposes.
So if you really want to be early 1990’s tech go COAX.
You can use 3com 3c509b Ethernet cards. Its easy to setup too.
These cards have Ethernet 1o-base-t, coax, and serial connector.
I use this card in all my 386 and 486 builds.
It’s a classic from the 1990’s

Performance and reliability is okay too.
We use to load the computer operating systems over the coax network with no problems.

I think I have that exact NIC. I'll dig it out later, because I may put it in my P3, temporarily. I'm now on the hunt for an ISA 10/100 card, as I potentially have a free ISA slot if I keep my SCC-1 out and get an AWE64 Legacy with a Dreamblaster X2.

While there ARE 10/100 ISA cards (3Com 515 is one of them), they are pretty rare and rather expensive.

Also, they don't improve things very much - you might get 2-3MBytes/sec out of one compared to 1MByte/sec max for a 10 megabit card. I'd stick with the common 3c509 for ISA machines.

Unfortunately, my slot availability in the Ultimate Retro Rig is limited. I was originally going to install a 2nd Voodoo2 for SLI mode, though I have since changed my mind on that, at least for now (I may try to get two more V2 cards for a separate, V2 based build,) which means 640x480 for V1 games, 800x600 for V2 games, and 1024x768 for V5 games (I put the respective glide files for each Voodoo card in the game directory so that the proper card is engaged.) This way, I am running games at the common resolution for their card and time period. This gives me a free PCI slot. Since the mobo is a P2B, I have three ISA slots with one shared with a PCI slot, so I really have two slots. Removing the SCC-1 leaves the AWE32 card and an empty slot. Once I get the AWE64 Legacy with a Dreamblaster X2, I can put an SCC-1 soundfont on the Dreamblaster and use the AWE64L to connect MT-32 and Sound Canvas devices and have AWE support along with OPL3 for compatibility with just about every DOS game. It will be disabled under Windows 9x, and the Live! card will be used for all Windows 9x games.

I found a card that has ethernet PLUS USB 2.0 and firewire (which I would never use - I have never owned a firewire anything.) However, the card is big enough that, like a 2nd V2, would restrict airflow to the V5. So I can put a tiny USB 2.0 card in the PCI slot which will allow for better airflow, and then I can put a 10/100 ISA card in for the LAN, and use an external serial port modem for dial-up. This set up will give me complete glide coverage, complete "best sound" coverage, give me better USB ports than what I get on the P2B, and allow for internet browsing at a decent speed, and allow for the PC to connect to the Retro LAN.

I set up a 128GB SSD for the main drive, and I am using a 3.5 bay IDE/CF drive for slave cards. However, as I was contemplating the build last night, I decided to swap them an make the SSD the slave drive, and by enough SD cards for my CF-SD adapter to create "cartridges" with each operating system. I'll have an 8gb card with an MS-DOS 7.1 install, a 4gb card with an MS-DOS 6.22 install, a Win95 OSR2 install, then 98SE, WinXP, and probably one with Linux since I played with Linux only briefly, before. I may even set up cards with emulators that work on a Pentium III 550 (600,once I buy another CPU) for consoles. I'll put labels with OS logos on each card and keep them in a case and use them like console cartridges.

An ISA 10/100 would probably have the broadest compatibility for every OS, and this set up will allow for the most functionality that I can provide for a 1999 PC.

snufkin wrote on 2021-05-26, 08:00:

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-25, 23:47:

Its not form the 90's, but I dug out a Dlink DI-707 that I used extensively until buying an N-router with those gigabit switches. It has a serial/COM port, what can I do with that? I had another thread where I was trying to figure out if it was possible to connect to the internet to download and browse via serial or parallel ports (the Xircom pocket ethernet adapter is $150!)

Quick skim of the DI-707 manual says it supports dial-up networking, so you should be able to connect an external serial modem to the serial port and use that, rather than the WAN port on the front. There are still one or two pay-as-you-go dial up internet providers around (at least one in the UK, and some ISPs still have a backup number for broadband customers) if you want the authentic experience of having large downloads (1MB!) fail because someone else in the house picks up the phone, and then the server not supporting resume.

I've vague memories of setting up a linux box (using an old Sun Sparc IPC maybe?) as a gateway that would automatically dial up if a computer on the network tried to access an IP outside out local net, and then drop the connection if there was no activity for a few minutes. Had a phone contract that allowed free calls to a few numbers, but only up to one hour long, so also had it set up to drop the connection and redial after 59 minutes. Which was in no way annoying.

I was hoping that the router could translate for the serial port and provide an internet connection. I wish that there was a way to connect a serial-to-ethernet cord to a PC serial port and a switch and use software to translate and provide a connection (albeit sl0w) that way. I also wish that I could get my hands on a Xircom for less. I do find Xircom Pocket Adapters for coax, token rings, etc. I don't know much about non-ethernet connections, though I do see bnc-to-ethernet and token ring-to-ethernet adapters, though I don't know if connecting a Xircom to a parallel port and then an ethernet adapter will work. I find it odd that you can hook up serial dial-up modems, but not serial-NICs; that serial-NICs were apparently never made or are rare. I know it would be ssllooww, but it would be better than nothing.

If you have an ISA slot free then the card that will give you the broadest range of compatibility (from Dos, through WIn 3.11/95/98, 2000/XP etc) would be the 10mbit 3C509B; they are everywhere, reasonably cheap and a huge range of drivers for almost every OS ever made. Whilst the 3C515 is technically faster (being a 10/100mbit card), there aren't any Dos packet drivers for it, as far as I'm aware... so if you wanted to use it in pure Dos via MTCP, you'd be out of luck.

If you decide to use a PCI slot, then you have far more choice - an Intel Pro 10/100/1000 is a good option and has driver support for both Dos and Windows (yes, that's right: gigabit network support in Dos). Or the cheap and cheerful Realtek RTL8139 10/100, again, has a wide range of driver compatibility; if you see the RTL8029 it's a 10mbit card only, so not worth wasting a PCI slot on.

megatron-uk wrote on 2021-05-26, 15:27:

If you have an ISA slot free then the card that will give you the broadest range of compatibility (from Dos, through WIn 3.11/95/98, 2000/XP etc) would be the 10mbit 3C509B; they are everywhere, reasonably cheap and a huge range of drivers for almost every OS ever made. Whilst the 3C515 is technically faster (being a 10/100mbit card), there aren't any Dos packet drivers for it, as far as I'm aware... so if you wanted to use it in pure Dos via MTCP, you'd be out of luck.

If you decide to use a PCI slot, then you have far more choice - an Intel Pro 10/100/1000 is a good option and has driver support for both Dos and Windows (yes, that's right: gigabit network support in Dos). Or the cheap and cheerful Realtek RTL8139 10/100, again, has a wide range of driver compatibility; if you see the RTL8029 it's a 10mbit card only, so not worth wasting a PCI slot on.

I found the ISA card I have; the one I will use until I find a 10/100 card with DOS/WFW drivers. It is a 3Com Etherlink III (3C509tp.) This is the card that I used to use in my original Zida 4DPS system, before that mobo died. I used it to pull files from my main PC through a networked drive in WFW 3.11. The more I think about the NIC and USB situation with the cards I currently have on hand, I think that the 3Com will work well enough for now. When I had my Gateway P3, I used dial-up, so 10mbit is always going to be faster than what I experienced back in the 90's. It wasn't until the early 2000's that I experienced broadband. I originally thought that the 3Com had a bnc jack, but maybe I had another old NIC that I no longer have (I lost a bunch of components when I moved, in 2018.) I remember having DOS drivers for this 3Com card. I may buy that NIC/USB combo card for my 486 if the NIC chip has DOS/WFW drivers (or even Win95 OSR2) and use Bret Johnson's USB drivers. I don't require a lot of airflow in that build, and the USB card that is in there is one of the smallest I have seen, which will be good for my V5. Then I can declare this rig to be "complete" so I can start using it, and then just upgrade the CPU, NIC, and sound card as they become available. Of course, I still need to choose a switch from 1999 or earlier, and thanks to everyone in the thread, I have the information I need to get started.

You can get the 3c509 with almost every combination of rj45, BNC and AUI, so it's quite possible that you had that one!

While meandering along the Information Superhighway, I found this model and it is available for cheap on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283983274152?epid=74 … uoAAOSwxElfO~BL

I believe it is from 1999, and it fits with the beige/white retro theme that I have going on (well, mostly beige/white/off-white; I have what looks like a green-grey 5.25 floppy drive - the one that matches doesn't work.)

I have one of those old 3com 10/100 hubs in storage. It's a nice unit and worked well while I had it in service untill I retired it for a cheap switch I got back in the day. For that price it's worth picking up

chrismeyer6 wrote on 2021-05-27, 01:41:

I have one of those old 3com 10/100 hubs in storage. It's a nice unit and worked well while I had it in service untill I retired it for a cheap switch I got back in the day. For that price it's worth picking up

It has more ports than I will ever need, though you never know... It is cool that you have one and that you liked it, and it looks like a really cool piece of tech history. It is in the "maybe" list as I look at a few more items and compare them. I may also grab a couple 10mbit ISA cards for the Pentium 1 machines I plan to put together, since the more I think about it, they will be more than enough for just about any MP game up until 2002 or so, as I remember playing Unreal Tournament via dial-up against a ton of different players, and of course even more players in Ultima Online. If I manage to get a retro LAN party going, I doubt I will have more than 4-5 players at a time. I'll do some occasional file transfers, though I will be able to use CF cards on most of the builds (and will buy things like ZIP drives, LS120 drives, etc.) It will be cool to build a retro server for the retro LAN. Eventually, I will research BBS software and learn how multiple callers could call in, plus I read that you can set it up so that people can access it through the internet.

I found this very helpful pdf with end of sale dates for various 3Com products:

https://techlibrary.hpe.com/docs/products/eos … ale%20dates.pdf

always network all your retro rigs!
1) Its a nice little challenge to get Dos/Win3x to talk to XP or beyond if your really brave.
2) file transfers just make life so easy, even with modern convinces like gotek or CF cards network once up and running wins.
3) its cool and impresses girls
4) opens up lan gaming, even if you don't have any friends (which you will thanks to point 3)

If you own a V1, V2, V5 that's at least 3 retro rigs your going to have in the future, I'd be planning ahead 😀

Dont get a hub, get a switch.

The Network equipment that runs the World Wide Web Internet is “Cisco”.
I would go HP or Cisco for a good 10/100 switch from 1990’s

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-26, 15:21:

I find it odd that you can hook up serial dial-up modems, but not serial-NICs; that serial-NICs were apparently never made or are rare. I know it would be ssllooww, but it would be better than nothing.

They exist, I have got one somewhere. Never had it running though. Very rare... in fact I think it was so rare that I gave up trying to find drivers, or just didn't have the ambition to make it work, there's only one machine in the house I can't put a regular NIC into, and it's PS/2 55SX, and it's not one of my favorite "children". I may have grabbed it thinking it was gonna be useful on my iOpener, but got USB NICs and wifi now.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-05-26, 15:21:

I was hoping that the router could translate for the serial port and provide an internet connection.

My best guess on that is that you need a null modem cable, possibly a "full" one, more than 3 wires, maybe 7. Then you probably need DHCP turned off on that router or it's gonna be trying to get IP from the box it's null modemed to... if it's a kind of stupid router, all network interfaces are just network interfaces, it might work out okay with SLIP or PPP (matching protocol to what router uses) but if it's too smart it might get in your way of "backfeeding" into the network like that. It's the sort of thing I could probably figure out by playing around, but can't tell you how to do.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-27, 14:23:

Dont get a hub, get a switch.

The Network equipment that runs the World Wide Web Internet is “Cisco”.
I would go HP or Cisco for a good 10/100 switch from 1990’s

I agree with getting a switch... but limiting to HP or Cisco is silly.

IMO, limiting to a period correct switch is almost as silly. The newer stuff uses less power and runs cooler and the functionality is going to be the same.

HP, Cisco, and 3com were probably the most commonly used network equipment back in 1990’s.
For home users It would have been Linksys which was a Cisco company.

It wasn't Cisco in the 90s

cyclone3d wrote on 2021-05-27, 15:49:

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-27, 14:23:

Dont get a hub, get a switch.

The Network equipment that runs the World Wide Web Internet is “Cisco”.
I would go HP or Cisco for a good 10/100 switch from 1990’s

I agree with getting a switch... but limiting to HP or Cisco is silly.

IMO, limiting to a period correct switch is almost as silly. The newer stuff uses less power and runs cooler and the functionality is going to be the same.

The degree of historical accuracy that a given person wants/needs in order to feel that the experience is authentic is definitely subjective, but I believe that we can all agree that there is such a thing as taking it too far, whether a retro hub/switch qualifies is, of course, subjective .

My personal opinion is that, in a retro PC context, network connectivity is not unlike electrical power, as both are utilitarian in nature and should be transparent to the experience if everything works well, safely and reliably .

Points to consider in that comparison :
a) Are vintage Ethernet cables and vintage power cables significant in the retro experience ?
b) Is the age of the Ethernet switch/hub more or less significant the age of the electrical panel in the building in the retro experience ?
c) Are retro power strips significant in the retro experience ?

BitWrangler wrote on 2021-05-27, 16:36:

It wasn't Cisco in the 90s

Yes, I think linksys was a startup company of network equipment for the home user.
But obviously it was guided by Cisco from its beginning later to be acquired by Cisco.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-27, 16:45:

But obviously it was guided by Cisco from its beginning later to be acquired by Cisco.

obviously you made this up

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-05-27, 14:23:

Dont get a hub, get a switch.

The Network equipment that runs the World Wide Web Internet is “Cisco”.

It really isn't.

It's overwhelmingly Huawei if you're talking about Asia and elsewhere Cisco is often looked at as being over priced for the feature set to more mainstream stuff like HP Procurve kit.