VOGONS


Reply 120 of 176, by kool kitty89

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Some chipsets (and boards actually connecting all the address lines to RAM sockets) support 4MB SIMMs, some just 1MB, though I think all SIMM and SIPP socketed boards at least support the 1MB. (none is limited to just 256kB module)

So there's definitely some 8-slot SIMM/SIPP boards that max out at 8MB, probably some 386 boards even. (I have an unusual 8-SIMM slot 286 SUNTAC based board that is limited to 8x 1Mx9 modules max and also didn't seem to like having 6x modules in there: just 2, 4, or 8 )

And I haven't run into ISA I/O conflicts causing memory errors like that, but I suppose SCSI DMA operations might do it.

I have run into certain combinations of cards and boards failing to boot (or sometimes failing to POST), but the behavior is different. It's mostly related to compact flash adapters + certain video cards + certain motherboards + aux 5V power supplied to the IDE to CF adapter. (in cases where boards can supply enough power through the ISA slot to run the CF card, the problem is also avoided by just not using external power ... I'm also pretty sure I'm using the correct jumper settings on these cards for that, but I could be screwing up there somewhere, too)

Also, that 12 MHz 287 comment from Evasive was towards one of my posts.

I was also wrong, it was actually an Intel 80C287-10 installed in that 12 MHz 286 board, and I've since seen a couple other 10 MHz 287s installed in 12 MHz boards on ebay (and don't appear to be set-up to use an asynchronous clock, so just running 12 MHz).

So it's even less a wonder it wouldn't work at 20 MHz, but I should qualify that I was thinking of the typically very-overclockable Intel 287XL-12 and assuming it was possible the plain CMOS 287 might also do well in that regard. And on top of that, I was also keeping in mind that Intel didn't bother grading any parts higher than 12 MHz for 286 and 287 to avoid cutting in on 386 and 386SX profit margins. (that's at least true for the later CMOS 286s while the original 12.5 MHz NMOS 286 was around before the 386 was on the market I think and at least well before the 386SX was marketed)

And aside from that, there's not all that much fun that can be had messing around with FPUs on souped-up 286 or XT class systems given how little software supports it. I think most folks on here just have them in there to get more complete benchmark results.

With 386s you can at least have the novelty of trying to run way out of era (mostly Pentium-oriented) benchmarks, demos, and a few games, but you can't do that with the 16-bit x86 processors, even in late model 286 boards with 386SX sockets.

But if you want to play around with some 16-bit CAD software or certain accounting or spreadsheet software that uses or requires an FPU, there's that. (there might actually be some flight simulators ... or maybe just one, that are both 16-bit real mode and can make use of an FPU, but I'm not sure about that)

It's sort of like those really fast Weitek FP coprocessors from the 386 and 486 era. Really good performers, but limited in actual software.

Except, unlike the 287, the Weitek co-pros were not well suited to accounting/statistics/scientific math programs actually needing or using double or extended precision FP functions, but really fast at 32-bit single-precision floating point math for CAD and 3D rendering applications, probably for DSP-type sound processing too. Thus actually would've been more useful for accelerating 3D games, but I don't think was popular or affordable enough to ever attract that market segment ... and I don't think any arcade games or commercial 3D simulator machines exploited those either. (I think it was used on some 3D graphics workstations, but maybe more so for RISC based platforms, like SUN's SPARK workstations)

Reply 121 of 176, by BSA Starfire

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One game I do know that uses a 287 is Falcon 3, there is a demo available too that is fun to watch, showing off some nice smooth polygon graphics on my suntaq 286-12 with 287(regular intel 80287).
I think simcity is another that also uses the FPU but haven't tried it personally.

286 20MHz,1MB RAM,Trident 8900B 1MB, Conner CFA-170A.SB 1350B
386SX 33MHz,ULSI 387,4MB Ram,OAK OTI077 1MB. Seagate ST1144A, MS WSS audio
Amstrad PC 9486i, DX/2 66, 16 MB RAM, Cirrus SVGA,Win 95,SB 16
Cyrix MII 333,128MB,SiS 6326 H0 rev,ESS 1869,Win ME

Reply 122 of 176, by kool kitty89

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That might be worth trying a fast 387SX compatible co-pro with, or fast 287 DIP-40 socket compatible ones, but the PLLC-68 chips seem a lot more common (and inexpensive).

The Suntac board I have with 8 30 pin SIMM sockets also has solder pads for an additional PGA-68 or LLC-68 socket that's unused and I assumed that was for a 387SX. There's also pads for a QFP-100 near that one, and I assume that was either for a 386SX or one of the QFP packaged 387SX compatible parts. (actually I think those QFP-100s were only used for Cyrix's 87SLC to go with the 486SLC but still unusual in 100 pin package rather than 68)

I haven't looked at the trace routing closely enough to figure out which, but it'd probably be more likely to be a universal 386SX + 286 board with spots for either. In which case, I'm not sure the 387SX socket would work with a 286 or only with a 386 installed. (there's also probably some coupling capacitors or other additional components that go along with those mounts and probably jumpers)

Edit: I realized the 87SLC is actually an 80 pin QFP, so those pads on my board are almost certainly for a 386SX.

Reply 123 of 176, by kool kitty89

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Apparently normal 386 boards also sometimes has spots for QFP-80 surface-mount coprocessors, so I suppose some 386SX boards would too. (or I suppose both cases could be boards with chipsets that officially support 486SLC or DLC chips, but could obviously use plain 386 DX/SX CPUs instead ... though I think surface-mounted 486DLC chips were pretty uncommon)

http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15367
http://chookman.id.au/cpu/Board5.jpg

Case in point with an OPTi 495SLC based board with surface-mounted DX-40 and empty pads for a QFP 387. (no spot for a PGA-68 FPU socket either, or PLLC-68 for that matter: since at least IIT made 387DX FPUs in PLLC-68 form, which often seem to have ended up soldered onto PGA-68 adapters)

As far as I know the pinouts of 387DX and SX FPUs aren't compatible in spite of the similar pin counts, but it's possible some could also switch modes. (as far as I've read, that's not the case)

Reply 124 of 176, by kool kitty89

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486 and cd rom drives

This thread seems helpful on the IDE CD-ROM drive issue, particularly this post:

kixs wrote on 2017-04-26, 21:06:

Any IDE controller supports ATAPI CD-ROM drives - even DVD ones. If using DOS you have to load proper drivers to access the unit.

You can use CD-ROM on generic ISA I/O controller on a 286 computer.

In your case set the CD-ROM to slave, HDD to master and with drivers you'll be albe to use it.

That sounds like what I'd previously thought, especially given that I know IDE itself is just an extension of the ISA bus (or in special cases, the 8-bit XT bus) and IDE 'controller' devices going through ISA slots are simply bridges, dumb logic devices that connect the IDE bus to the I/O and DMA ports on ISA. (the actual controllers are all embedded in the hard drives, flash drives, etc with IDE)

The same is true for onboard IDE on many 486 and Pentium class boards (and some 286 and 386 boards, or even some XT clones with integrated I/O sections). You'll often see simple, integrated multi-I/O chips on the boards to provide IDE, usually Winbond chips but probably some others as well. Those usually provide IDE, RS-232 serial, LPT parallel, and IBM compatible game ports. (some boards actually have game port headers, too, but many seem to omit that due to lack of demand for game ports without sound and lack of demand for multiple game ports: and it's obviously cheaper to leave that off the board, too)

Most ISA cards using similar multi-IO chips will include game port headers or DA-15 connectors on the I/O bracket end of the card. (usually you get the parallel port and either a game port or DE-9 serial port socket there)

However, Feopia did mention problems using IDE CD-ROM drives over generic ISA adapters:

feipoa wrote on 2017-04-28, 03:40:

Responding to the original post: It has been my experience that many onboard older ISA IDE controller cards do not seem to work with my IDE CD-ROM drives, even after trying several DOS drivers. I didn't dissect the problem in detail; instead bought an ISA card which was intended only for CD-ROM drives. It was $5 back in 1999 and worked without any tinkering. Now days, I run all my older 386 and 486 systems with SCSI, so I use SCSI CD-ROM drives, which are often bootable.

So I'm not really sure what to say here or why that happens. I could see why there'd be problems trying to use CD-ROM boot disks in such systems (no BIOS support for bootable CD-ROMs, so you'd need a companion boot floppy to run CD based OS installers) but that wouldn't have anything to do with mounting a CD-ROM drive inside DOS.

It also seems strange that a dedicated ISA IDE CD-ROM interface card would work when a universal IDE card wouldn't.

That is, unless he was trying to run a Hard drive and CD-ROM drive off the same IDE cable in master/slave configuration, as that might cause problems or require specific jumper settings on both the drives and board.

Otherwise there should be no difference between IDE adapter cards for HDD or CD-ROM and should work for both purposes as simple bridges. (CD-ROM interface cards with BIOS firmware to allow for booting from CD-ROM would be a step beyond that, but the same IDE interface logic would be present in all those cases)

SCSI is nicer since it works with XT class systems, too (or narrow SCSI does) and I think has differnet drive capacity limitations than IDE + int13, but modern XTIDE interface cards should mitigate those sorts of advantages too. (so unless you already have SCSI drives and interface cards around, it's probably going to be cheaper and easier to use XTIDE + CF cards)

Though SCSI also gives more options for non-IBM compatible systems like the Atari ST and Amiga.

Reply 125 of 176, by Vipersan

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Still in lockdown for the moment due to my MS ..but been super busy as my mother was sent home to protect her as her care home had covid cases.
..her care has been mine and my sisters priority for a few weeks as she then had to endure total isolation ...and her dementia didn't help in this regard.

Still ..I did manage to make some progress with the DFI 386 build ..
Finally got a CDrom (with audio out) in the build ..
I tried various devices on the sound cards built in psuedo IDE interfaces ..but to no avail.
This I concluded was down to the drive types I tried..
The closest I got working was a Sony CDU33A ..
Drive recognised and spun up ...but couldn't read a disc.
Failed Laser OPU I suspect.
Anyhoo ..went back to the old Idea of hooking up a SCSI card into the system but used a different card ..which appears more compatible.
AHA-1510B ..
Turns out this card works without issues in the build with EZ-SCSI v4
So ..back went the 820mb drive ..but not as the C: drive ...this pivilege goes to the Conner CFS420A (440mb)
I do love these old Conner Hard Drives..they seem to last forever..
🤣
The Sound card is now the CT 2230 and I found full floppy 5 disk drivers in Vogons drivers.
The VGA card was replaced with a WD 90C30-LR
and I bid on a non working BTC-5349 AT keyboard (poor mans model M ?) and won it for a few pounds..
This keyboard is a capacitance model foam and foil ...but after a damned good internal clean ..and a new cable fitted ..is now an excellent keyboard.
I aquired a couple of 4mb simms just to see if the DFI mobo could be upgraded beyond 8mb ...
The answer is no ...the 4mb rams are only recognised as 1mb simms.
..and a maths co-pro fitted ..just because I had one going begging.
Now ..although I now have about 1.2gb ..or HD space , the DOS6.22 OS resides on the Conner ...and I will use the scsi HD for storage.
This means I can periodically back up the C drive to the SCSI drive as I do make many mistakes using DOS.
I freely admit I'm less than expert.
I do however want to install a network card if it is possible just so I can import/export stuff to the network server.
This I am NOT looking forward to ..as network in dos is a nightmare project (at least for me it is).
I do still get an error reported by the bios at boot ..related to XCMOS Checksum ..and I dont seem to be able to work out why (see photo)
I also attached photos of most of the post screens.
and system performance screens from CHECKIT...both Turbo and non Turbo modes.
but..all in all I am pleased with the progress I have made.
rgds
VS

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Last edited by Vipersan on 2020-05-17, 20:08. Edited 4 times in total.

Reply 126 of 176, by Vipersan

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More photos

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Reply 127 of 176, by Vipersan

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and finally

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Reply 129 of 176, by evasive

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There would be no greater joy than to have a workbench with a computer in parts and a multimeter in the side. Congrats on getting it to work. Now comes the slightly less glamorous task of putting it neatly in a case.

Reply 130 of 176, by Vipersan

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After much heartache and soul searching ...plus many ...many....many failed attempts at trying to get a network card installed and working in DOS...I finally capitulated ...
..and after backing up my working DOS622 system to the D: scsi drive ..I decided to try installing windows for workgroups 3.11
Even this presented problems for me .
I fitted an Etherlink pnp ISA 3C509B ..which WFW picked up and wrongly installed ...
I finally managed to get it out of the system ..and reinstalled with some driver floppies I found on-line.
The problems were not over ..and still aren't...but after dumping the NETBUI protocol ...and finding a floppy at win world for the TCPIP stack..I finally have it getting an IP from my router via DHCP.
I suspected networking would be a trial ..but didn't expect it to be a 3 day trial of my sanity.
Now I have to work out how to share a single folder just so I can get 'stuff' in and out.
I feel I've learned a lot but at what cost to my ancient grey matter cells...
??
😉
rgds
VS
..I feel the pull of my pint of Guinness ..so bye for now

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Reply 131 of 176, by kool kitty89

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I've never messed around with putting retro hardware on a network, partially due to security reasons (even though most of my 9x builds and parts swaps of those builds probably wouldn't be difficult to get onto LAN or even online), but years ago I did have a dream of setting up a LAN multiplayer gaming setup for DOS (or moreso) 9x games.

Reply 132 of 176, by evasive

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@Vipersan: when getting to networking of that era, feel free to post your issues/findings in the forum, there's bound to be someone to help out with the quirks. I know I have damned more networking stuff to h*ll than I can remember...

Reply 133 of 176, by Caluser2000

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There are no security, issues apart from physical, if your old stuff is on its own subnet at home. Also using NetBui on older systems that support it is negates security via remote access as well.

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 134 of 176, by Vipersan

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..Well the sharing was actually easier than I thought..
I simply made a folder in windows (Drive D: scsi storage)..called it shared ...and used the share function..
A little hand appears under the folder ..
Back on my Win7 PC ...I just refreshed the network ..and damned if 'shared' on DFI386 didn't just show up..
Just sent over some WD90C3o video card drivers ..
about 2mb total size ..and took about 1.5 minutes
Just have to remember not to use long file names..
Not sure what protocol is being used ..but am guessing some form of SAMBA.
..and no idea if this would also work under win10 ...as I rarely use it.
rgds
VS
..as to worrying about security issues ..the DFI386 wont remain on the network permanently as I only really want it as a means to get data in and out of the DFI build.

Reply 135 of 176, by Vipersan

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I must be close to the end now ..
Just a few more bits to sort out.
I have a universal multi plug end audio lead on order to hook the CD to the sound card.
I need to update the WD90C30 graphics card drivers..
..sort out that annoying "XCMOS checksum error" if I can (still a mystery)
and finally get some luvverly DOS and WIN3.1 compatible games and software on it.
..and then ..the case ..fitted.

I have some Amiga projects on the go also ..so I wont get bored.
🤣

Reply 136 of 176, by Vipersan

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Made a start installing games to my DFI386.
Some of these I havent seen since I was just a boy..now in my 60s
Many more to go but I aint short of space on the drive(s)
I had forgotten however ..just how loooong it takes installing from floppy disks...but it is a retro experience I enjoy.
Here are a few photos of what is installed so far..
Monkey Island 2 next ...followed by Leasure suit Larry 1, 2 and 3
I must remember to check the installation details first though as I have to keep in mind this is a lowly 386.
😉

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Reply 137 of 176, by Vipersan

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And some more...

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Reply 138 of 176, by Vipersan

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Installed LeChucks Revenge no problem and is running just fine ..
Installed LSL 1 LSL2 and LSL3
LSL2 and 3 run just fine also ..but although LSL1 installed ok ..it will not run and produces the error in the photo ..complaining about memory .
Curious as this runs no problem on a 286 ...so can only be because the 386 uses emm386.
I guessing it simply doesn't want to run in a 386 even though there is plently of memory ...perhaps too much for LSL1.
suggestions welcomed....as I dont want to make any changes without understanding them first.
rgds
VS

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Reply 139 of 176, by Caluser2000

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Looking damn good falla. Well done!

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉