swaaye wrote:

How many decades do you need your mobo to last?

How many 386/486 or earlier machines do you have that still run? I still have computers from the late 70's that work, so I need them to last for many decades. Many, MANY decades.

Well you should be able to use a modern solid cap, 2oz copper, 36 phase VRM (need moar!) mobo well into the future I think.

I still have one 486 around but I basically have not used it in years because it's troublesome and I'd rather play DOS games on DOSBox or a faster more reliable machine. 486 VLB/PCI stuff was typically a pain in the ass. I doubt age is its problem.

sliderider wrote:

Many, MANY decades.

No matter what we'd like, and no matter how well something was made, the caps are going to dry out.

I don't mean to discourage, but rather to point it out. If you plan to really keep this kit going, you should look into getting skilled at capacitor replacement.

It varies heavily, but figure roughly 30 years old for when caps can start to become a problem. My Osborne is already suffering. But then I've got some radio gear that's a decade older but fine, while stuff from the same manufacturer need re-capping.

swaaye wrote:

In the past 5 years I think quality has gone way up. We've got all of the manufacturers of motherboards trying to differentiate themselves based on quality factors like caps, board layers, VRM design, etc. How many decades do you need your mobo to last?

Did anyone else notice how PCIe had almost no teething problems, unlike AGP? VIA never did figure out how to make an AGP slot. 😉

I definitely noticed this, if only for the lack of problems related to hardware. PCIe definitely seems like they finally got it right the first time, but I also note that PCIe was around for quite a while before it actually replaced AGP on a wide scale.

sliderider wrote:

How many 386/486 or earlier machines do you have that still run? I still have computers from the late 70's that work, so I need them to last for many decades. Many, MANY decades.

+1! 😁

(Does no one else find it quite hilarious to see "PC Chips" and "durable" in the same sentence?)

Not sure about their modern offerings, but Intel's own motherboards are built like a rock. Still have an old SE440BX-2 board that went through quite a lot of physical torture (even got a little bit of cleaning solvent spilled on it once) and still boots up without any problems.

Jorpho wrote:

(Does no one else find it quite hilarious to see "PC Chips" and "durable" in the same sentence?)

That's very surprising; I've always been told to steer clear of them. Seems like something that would go into those old Crapard Hell boxes.

Jorpho wrote:

(Does no one else find it quite hilarious to see "PC Chips" and "durable" in the same sentence?)

Durable and functional are two different things. 😜

About'em troublesome caps....

Been looking all over the net for some info, but my search skills seems to have let me down this time. Maybe I should post this on badcaps.net, but trying here for now:

If you buy a truckload(or slightly less) of brand new caps, and bag'em and put in storage - how long before they get past their 'best before' date and turn unusable?
5 years, 10 years, 35 years ?

Or do they not suffer from loong time room temperature storage if not beeing used ?
(maybe helps putting them in a refrigerator?)

....Foreseeing some time in the (distant?) future they will stop making these, as well as in sizes that fit old mobos etc... 😢

bestemor wrote:

If you buy a truckload(or slightly less) of brand new caps, and bag'em and put in storage - how long before they get past their 'best before' date and turn unusable?
5 years, 10 years, 35 years ?

If the plague is any indication, it depends who you buy it from and what formulation they're using. Kind of like recordable media in that respect, I guess.

bestemor wrote:

....Foreseeing some time in the (distant?) future they will stop making these, as well as in sizes that fit old mobos etc... 😢

Didn't they only just recently stop making vacuum tubes?

Jorpho wrote:

If the plague is any indication, it depends who you buy it from and what formulation they're using. Kind of like recordable med […]
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bestemor wrote:

If you buy a truckload(or slightly less) of brand new caps, and bag'em and put in storage - how long before they get past their 'best before' date and turn unusable?
5 years, 10 years, 35 years ?

If the plague is any indication, it depends who you buy it from and what formulation they're using. Kind of like recordable media in that respect, I guess.

bestemor wrote:

....Foreseeing some time in the (distant?) future they will stop making these, as well as in sizes that fit old mobos etc... 😢

Didn't they only just recently stop making vacuum tubes?

I don't know about vacuum tubes, but I know Microsoft only relatively recently discontinued distribution of WFW 3.11.

http://gizmodo.com/5077047/windows-3x-discontinued

Tubes are still in production. Just the demand for guitar amps will probably keep them around forever.

Sweet little step-by-step film of what goes into a tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl-QMuUQhVM

Cap shelf-life is tricky business to predict. Depends on the formula. The demonstrated shelf-life of electrolytic caps made in previous decades doesn't necessarily apply to elcos made now.

At some point the the electrolyte is going to go sour, regardless of storage. But I would /guess/ caps bought now and stored in the cool dark would be fresh when the caps on your current boards start to dry up; you ought to get at least one generation of fixing out of a modest supply bought today.

By the time the second generation of replacement comes around (possibly beyond your lifetime, certainly mine) probably hobbyists will have figured out a replacement. Meaning elcos may not be in production, but there will be electric equivalents figured out from the current tech.

Online, look to ham radio restoration. Those guys are already having serious discussion about these issues.

sliderider wrote:

I don't know about vacuum tubes, but I know Microsoft only relatively recently discontinued distribution of WFW 3.11.

Chips too, funny enough. Just a few years ago I was astonished to see Intel 386 were still available through Digikey.

bestemor wrote:

About'em troublesome caps.... […]
Show full quote

About'em troublesome caps....

Been looking all over the net for some info, but my search skills seems to have let me down this time. Maybe I should post this on badcaps.net, but trying here for now:

If you buy a truckload(or slightly less) of brand new caps, and bag'em and put in storage - how long before they get past their 'best before' date and turn unusable?
5 years, 10 years, 35 years ?

Or do they not suffer from loong time room temperature storage if not beeing used ?
(maybe helps putting them in a refrigerator?)

....Foreseeing some time in the (distant?) future they will stop making these, as well as in sizes that fit old mobos etc... 😢

I'm not sure what affects them, but I do know I once got a working GF2 Pro. Over 3 years ago I put one of those big blue Zalman heatpipe coolers on it (didn't really have any better graphics cards to mod back then) and put it away as I never had a suitable system for it, then kinda forgot about it.
Then recently I found it again. It had 2 bulging caps -_-
I'm 100% sure these weren't bulging back when I originally installed the cooler or I wouldn't have bothered putting that cooler on it in the first place.
I noticed the same with 1 (maybe 2) motherboard, a BX slot 1. It appeared to have started bulging after I got it as I never accept bulging caps on any PCB.

GF2 Pro and BX are the right time period for that bad batch of electrolyte that went through the industry around 2000. That was such a mess. But it's kinda a different discussion than general cap life.

Sure made people gun-shy though. A tiny percentage of caps are always going to spoil early due to a number of reasons. When you see one, you just can't help but wonder if the plague is back.

Tetrium wrote:

I'm not sure what affects them, but I do know I once got a working GF2 Pro. Over 3 years ago I put one of those big blue Zalman […]
Show full quote

I'm not sure what affects them, but I do know I once got a working GF2 Pro. Over 3 years ago I put one of those big blue Zalman heatpipe coolers on it (didn't really have any better graphics cards to mod back then) and put it away as I never had a suitable system for it, then kinda forgot about it.
Then recently I found it again. It had 2 bulging caps -_-
I'm 100% sure these weren't bulging back when I originally installed the cooler or I wouldn't have bothered putting that cooler on it in the first place.
I noticed the same with 1 (maybe 2) motherboard, a BX slot 1. It appeared to have started bulging after I got it as I never accept bulging caps on any PCB.

..message goes blank when posting it WTF?!

! 😲 EDIT; it was the 'url' coding that killed it, somehow my url works without the [ url] coding! (space intentional not to kill this message)
Removed the coding, bare url only, and am now able to post here!... weird.

pewpewpew wrote:

Online, look to ham radio restoration. Those guys are already having serious discussion about these issues.

Thanks for the tip !!! Saved my day! 😁 (well, kinda, heh...)

So, it seems like drying out is not the only or even worst problem.....

I KNEW I had heard a rumour about 'the badness of idleness', just couldn't find any more info...
That may explain why my daily working slot1 mobo still works, while some of the ones in storage take several tries to start, or even not at all.... 😒

http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/

excerpts:

* * *

"Electrolytics do not suffer idleness well. They can cause big trouble when idle for long periods, needing periodic charging to stay "formed" and maintain the oxide layer that insulates the conducting plates. Sometimes they can be "reformed" by a slowly rising return to working voltage (see below). Even with regular use, electrolytics fail with age by drying out or leaking electrolyte following internal corrosion. If the electrolytic bulges, shows obvious loss of electrolyte, or simply can't be reformed you must replace it. "

* * *

and...

* * *

"Reforming
The thin layer of aluminum oxide formed to insulate the capacitor foil constitutes formation. Capacitor manufacturers use proprietary mixes of chemicals and DC electricity to create this insulating layer, which deteriorates with time and idleness. Often the oxide layer is in such bad shape in older equipment that it must be reformed or else the capacitor will fail catastrophically. All methods of reforming use the slow reapplication of DC electricity to restore the oxide layer to its original thickness and uniformity.

In my opinion, there's no one proven way to reform - many different approaches are available, but all have one element in common - slowness. The reforming must proceed faster than the buildup of heat due to the low resistance of the faulty oxide layer - this will at least take hours, and can take days."

* * *

MAn... those of us that has several(or several dozen++) of mobos etc, will have to rotate them in some sort of power-up period, weekly/monthly/yearly ??!
(IF I understood it correctly that is.... 😜 )

How often, and how long each time??

hmm... More research/netsearch needed....

NOTE: I am assuming that the same science applies for 'new-er' smaller computer caps vs those older audio/radio ones, common factor beeing the electrolytes, so....

-------------
edit2:
crap, I forgot, even CRT's have loads of the stuff/caps inside.... but they are such a pain(30kg) to move out of storage and 'recharge'... ack
Cannot permanently fill the living room with 6 spare ones either.

Just a suggestion. After you get the terminology etc squared away, make a polite enquiry with a museum or two to see what their gameplan is for keeping the kit working as the years go on.