Harry Potter wrote on 2023-06-29, 14:42:

Those specs are way more than I want. I want the following: * 486DX4 or Pentium * 16-32KB RAM * Hard drive between 350 an […]
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Those specs are way more than I want. I want the following:
* 486DX4 or Pentium
* 16-32KB RAM
* Hard drive between 350 and 500MB
* EVGA or SVGA graphics
* Sound card at least bSB16 or true compatible
* Standard ports
* CD drive at least 4x
* Software preferred but not necessary: I can install it myself. I can even partition and format the HDD myself.

* There's one important component missing: power supply unit (PSU). Finding a working, stable AT power supply (and a corresponding case) could be a very difficult and/or pricey task. Using a modern ATX PSU + case would be much easier. Consequently, you'd have to find a motherboard The Serpent Rider said: a Pentium-era MB (430TX chipset if possible) with Socket 7 and ATX form factor / power connector, as well as a corresponding CPU (preferably with MMX).

* If you're not going to use this build under Win98SE then 16-32MB would be sufficient for DOS applications. For 430FX, VX, or TX chipsets, do not use more than 64MB of RAM.

* A CF or SD card with 512MB to 2GB capacity, coupled with an IDE adapter, would be your best choice.

* "EVGA graphics?" What is that? EGA and VGA are different standards, although any VGA adapter accepts software designed under EGA palette; OTOH "eVGA" is a brand name. Like dionb said, S3 (Trio and ViRGE in particular) was the king of compatibility in the era of PCI graphics, plus they are cheap and easy to find nowadays.

* Any 16-bit ISA sound card made by Creative, Crystal, or ESS should be fine.

* ATX motherboards have ports standardized; many older AT motherboards require ribbon cables between MB and specific sockets on the back plate. Another reason to choose ATX over AT.

* The CD-ROM is the most ironic part in your list: With the exception of SCSI drives, most if not all 4x and faster consumer CD-ROM were equipped with IDE/ATAPI interface. It was not until 430FX (Triton) chipset did Intel integrate 2+2 IDE controllers onto motherboards; older motherboards with chipsets before it required an independent disk controller card and could be either very slow (ISA) or very difficult to find (VLB). Many early 1x or 2x CD-ROM had proprietary interfaces: Panasonic, Mitsumi, Sony, etc. that required specific sound cards to connect.

Harry Potter wrote on 2023-06-29, 19:02:

How much would it cost to get one custom-built? I live in the U.S.

Harry Potter wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:49:

If I could create a system, I would, but I'm not familiar with the hardware. 🙁

You mean, the cost of manpower to assemble all hardware components together? No offense, but I assume VOGONS users have basic assembly skills. If you don't want to fiddle with hardware and all you want is to run some DOS/Win31 era games and apps, I suggest either use DOSBOX or buy a working Pentium-era computer like Shponglefan suggests:

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:57:

If you want a pre-built system, I would recommend what I previously suggested: just save an Ebay search for "Pentium computer" and when a system gets advertised that is in-line with the specs you want, then buy it.

That's probably going to be the most straight-forward option. You can always tweak things later by swapping individual components.

dionb wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:31:

If you want simplicity (rather than ultimate tweaking options), go for an Intel OEM Pentium ATX board, like Thor, Marl, Tucson or Anchorage. They frequently have onboard VGA and audio which can be good. In particular, Thor and Tucson have S3 video and either Crystal or Yamaha audio with excellent SBPro2.0 and bug-free MIDI. No SB16, but they do do WSS (also 16b audio with higher sample rate) and if you really want SB16, you still have ISA slots to add one.

I also recommend Intel ATX boards. Very solid choice even without additional integrated options. Perfect for DOS setup with no additional hassles.

Intel-built 486/Pentium/PPro/PII motherboard guide

Got a Tucson board in a Micron mid tower, very solid and stable board. Kinda let down by the "plasticcyness" of the Micron unit it's in, which is all scuffed and retains dirt. So if fugly doesn't bother you, similar micron units might not be in the most appealing cosmetic shape, yet contain very solid internals.

I'm trying to build dos machine too and 486 isn't good choice . I'm getting some trouble with it. First off all is that there is no boot from cd rom which is very disappointing as I don't have working floppy disks atm and my floppy drive scratches disk surface. Secondly even I have late 486 board which have ide and pci , board itself refuse to detect hdd properly and gives no boot device error . So I moved on pentium platform which not friendly either, but at least I'm able to boot from hdd and it somehow works. BTW it might be faulty hardware causes all those issues .

Anything before late 430FX boards (which coincides with ATX standard release) is bound to have problems.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-06-30, 03:17:

I also recommend Intel ATX boards. Very solid choice even without additional integrated options. Perfect for DOS setup with no additional hassles.

Intel-built 486/Pentium/PPro/PII motherboard guide

Thanks for the link. 👍 My Dell Dimension has a modified Endeavor board (with Dell's notorious proprietary power socket 😿 ) and is still ticking with no issues after more than 27 years. 😸

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:11:

Anything before late 430FX boards (which coincides with ATX standard release) is bound to have problems.

IIRC boards with 430FX, VX, or HX chipsets and in ATX form factor were very rare. Even many TX and SS7 boards were in Baby AT form factor (e.g. my Asus TXP4); fortunately most of them have ATX power sockets.

dormcat wrote on 2023-06-30, 09:46:

IIRC boards with 430FX, VX, or HX chipsets and in ATX form factor were very rare. Even many TX and SS7 boards were in Baby AT form factor (e.g. my Asus TXP4); fortunately most of them have ATX power sockets.

Out of listed, only 430FX in ATX form-factor is rare. Everything else was in abundant quantity as OEM parts for different brands.

ciornyi wrote on 2023-06-30, 05:42:

I'm trying to build dos machine too and 486 isn't good choice . I'm getting some trouble with it. First off all is that there is no boot from cd rom which is very disappointing as I don't have working floppy disks atm and my floppy drive scratches dick surface. Secondly even I have late 486 board which have ide and pci , board itself refuse to detect hdd properly and gives no boot device error . So I moved on pentium platform which not friendly either, but at least I'm able to boot from hdd and it somehow works. BTW it might be faulty hardware causes all those issues .

Not really. Booting from CD (unless via SCSI, which is a different rabbit hole...) didn't become common until late P2/P3 era, so you'd face that with a Pentium too. The issue with your HDD and the 486 is probably that it was too big. BIOS had HDD size limits which on a 486 might limit you to 500MB (without BIOS patches or XTIDE type solutions)

OP has a P4 Win98 system. That is very useful to bootstrap the installation on old non-CD booters. Get DOS on a HDD on that system, transplant the HDD to the old one and that's all you need. Otherwise you need floppies or floppy emulators.

dormcat wrote on 2023-06-30, 09:46:

[...]

IIRC boards with 430FX, VX, or HX chipsets and in ATX form factor were very rare. Even many TX and SS7 boards were in Baby AT form factor (e.g. my Asus TXP4); fortunately most of them have ATX power sockets.

They were less common in retail, as people building their own systems tended to prefer to reuse their cases and PSUs, but they were common in OEM as Serpent Rider already pointed out. Also there were definitely retail options out there. Asus' XP55T2P4 comes to mind, or indeed their TX97-XE.

Harry Potter wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:38:

That's a lot! I like tweaks and, so, can handle settings, but, as I mentioned, my understanding of hardware is poor. 🙁

This doesn't really make sense. To be able to tweak stuff effectively, you need to know how it works. If you get someone else to build your system, you don't learn anything, and you're in no position to tweak stuff, at least none of the stuff you could effectively do at a hardware level. If you want to tweak, build and learn. If you don't want the latter, content yourself with what someone else builds for you.

dionb wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:32:

Booting from CD (unless via SCSI, which is a different rabbit hole...) didn't become common until late P2/P3 era, so you'd face that with a Pentium too.

While this is generally true, there are some exceptions.

Some later socket 7 motherboards, with an ATX power connector, do offer the "boot from CD" option. And many super socket 7 motherboards have this functionality as well.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:41:

dionb wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:32:

Booting from CD (unless via SCSI, which is a different rabbit hole...) didn't become common until late P2/P3 era, so you'd face that with a Pentium too.

While this is generally true, there are some exceptions.

Some later socket 7 motherboards, with an ATX power connector, do offer the "boot from CD" option. And many super socket 7 motherboards have this functionality as well.

True, it was around 1998 that it became common. However OP is deciding between 486 and Pentium, so this is all beyond that era. Of course, you can go for a late Aladdin V / MVP3 motherboard and put a Pentium 100 on there too...

Couldn't OP just use a gotek?

That would probably solve the reliability problems and make it easy to install dos on whatever hardware he chooses.

dionb wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:51:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:41:

dionb wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:32:

Booting from CD (unless via SCSI, which is a different rabbit hole...) didn't become common until late P2/P3 era, so you'd face that with a Pentium too.

While this is generally true, there are some exceptions.

Some later socket 7 motherboards, with an ATX power connector, do offer the "boot from CD" option. And many super socket 7 motherboards have this functionality as well.

True, it was around 1998 that it became common. However OP is deciding between 486 and Pentium, so this is all beyond that era. Of course, you can go for a late Aladdin V / MVP3 motherboard and put a Pentium 100 on there too...

My aforementioned Dell Dimension XPS (bought in 1995) has BIOS update that is still downloadable from Dell's website (now THAT'S some premium customer support!); once updated the BIOS would support boot from CD, and that update was provided as early as September 1995 (see attached text file). IIRC the compatibility of this function, however, is not equal among different models of CD-ROM.

AppleSauce wrote on 2023-06-30, 13:29:

Couldn't OP just use a gotek?

The price of a GoTek can be more expensive than a working Pentium build if you find the latter at the right place (friends and relatives, garage or moving sale, e-waste recycling center, etc.).

dormcat wrote on 2023-06-30, 13:50:

IIRC the compatibility of this function, however, is not equal among different models of CD-ROM.

Yes the drive needs to support it also. While I have a 2X Creative Labs IDE unit that is bootable, this was uncommon, large proportion of 2x models won't, it gets more common on 4X and 6X drives until "most" drives are capable by the time 8X come out, but there's still a handful of 8X that won't do it. Something to bear in mind if you are trying to have period correct optical drives.

There were some system manufacturers that were "early" to the feature. I think one was NEC/Siemens Nixdorf. Their socket 5 Pentium models had boot from CD I think. I also encountered it on one late 486 board, but it was not owned by me, so don't remember model. It was a very late 486/PCI model with the AMI "winbios". There might be an old "Linux boot from CD howto" or something like that kicking around which gives some clues. You can try searching "El Torito" against models to see if it is mentioned as supported, which is the name of the bootable standard.

dionb wrote on 2023-06-30, 11:32:

ciornyi wrote on 2023-06-30, 05:42:

I'm trying to build dos machine too and 486 isn't good choice . I'm getting some trouble with it. First off all is that there is no boot from cd rom which is very disappointing as I don't have working floppy disks atm and my floppy drive scratches dick surface. Secondly even I have late 486 board which have ide and pci , board itself refuse to detect hdd properly and gives no boot device error . So I moved on pentium platform which not friendly either, but at least I'm able to boot from hdd and it somehow works. BTW it might be faulty hardware causes all those issues .

Not really. Booting from CD (unless via SCSI, which is a different rabbit hole...) didn't become common until late P2/P3 era, so you'd face that with a Pentium too. The issue with your HDD and the 486 is probably that it was too big. BIOS had HDD size limits which on a 486 might limit you to 500MB (without BIOS patches or XTIDE type solutions)

OP has a P4 Win98 system. That is very useful to bootstrap the installation on old non-CD booters. Get DOS on a HDD on that system, transplant the HDD to the old one and that's all you need. Otherwise you need floppies or floppy emulators.

I have 1280MB hdd it recognized both pentium/486 systems but pentium set it as LBA while 486 as CHS. Also i have DIsk on module 512MB but need to get it working