retep_110 wrote on 2023-08-08, 10:50:

The safest bet would be the look for decent alternative sound card .

Its sounding like "The safest bet would be the look for decent alternative Voodoo videocard."
Nope. 😀

Hey,

My Retro rig is a PIII@450 with an Intel SE440BX MB as listed in my signature below. I've been extremely happy with it and use it daily to run both DOS and Win games under the installed Win98SE. Has been a stable and rock solid system.

IMO you can't go wrong with the 440BX board.

Best wishes,

Tony.

TuesdaysGone wrote on 2023-08-08, 17:19:

Hey, My Retro rig is a PIII@450 with an Intel SE440BX MB as listed in my signature below. I've been extremely happy with it […]
Show full quote

Hey,

My Retro rig is a PIII@450 with an Intel SE440BX MB as listed in my signature below. I've been extremely happy with it and use it daily to run both DOS and Win games under the installed Win98SE. Has been a stable and rock solid system.

IMO you can't go wrong with the 440BX board.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Thanks for your recommendation as well. Your P3 system also sounds really cool btw.

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-08, 20:23:

Thanks for your recommendation as well. Your P3 system also sounds really cool btw.

No problem. You're welcome. Here's a link to a thread I started on here with a couple of not so good pics of my Rig.

My Retro Gaming Rig

Thanks,

Tony.

If you don't want to mess with capacitors then absolutely stay away from ABit. I love ABit boards, they are iconic enthusiast motherboards with detailed BIOS features, but in that time period they all have bad caps. This is why they went out of business.

The Gigabyte boards I've seen in that period also had bad caps, but maybe not as bad as ABit's. I'd avoid them, though.

AOpen, Asus, and Intel had good capacitors in the 440BX Slot-1 era.
Probably Tyan and Supermicro, but I'm not sure about them.
I have a mainstream Tyan socket-7 board from ~1998-99 and I think it had a mix of mostly Sanyo caps (good) but also some that were cheap.
I've seen some bad caps on later Supermicro boards but I don't know about the late 90s.
Most manufacturers had bad caps unfortunately.

There might be a strong supply of Intel SE440BX-2 or similar model boards available, maybe at decent prices. Around maybe 10 years ago a warehouse in the US sold thousands of them as new old stock. There's probably a lot of them in resale nowadays, maybe some got over to Europe.
These are very conservative boards with limited options (made by Intel, after all), but they are very reliable.

Intel's Slot-1 boards were also used in Dell computers. You might find more of the Dell version than the Intel version. The Dell version will have a Dell logo on it, the Intel version will have an Intel logo. The Intel version works with a standard ATX power supply and that's the one you probably want.
The Dell branded versions of these boards require a different power supply, or an adapter. You might find a good bargain on these boards because most people avoid them, but if you don't want to deal with the power supply issue, don't get a Dell branded board.

If your friend is looking for a P3 at 450-600MHz, then it sounds like he's looking for a Katmai CPU (which runs on the same 2.0V that previous Pentium 2 does). There are some Coppermine CPUs in that clock range which are faster, but they use a lower voltage and you have to pay attention to whether the motherboard supports them.
Many 440BX motherboards can run Coppermines without actually saying they do in their documentation, so follow up with that if you need help with it.
This applies to the Asus P2B - many of them have Coppermine support prior to when it became official.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-08, 22:17:

Intel had good capacitors in the 440BX Slot-1 era.

You are comparing business class with mass market.
Intel (or the same Fujitsu and Siemens) motherboards were designed to last decades in some CNC machine, not to be replaced after 3 years due to obsolescence.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-08, 22:17:

If you don't want to mess with capacitors then absolutely stay away from ABit. I love ABit boards, they are iconic enthusiast m […]
Show full quote

If you don't want to mess with capacitors then absolutely stay away from ABit. I love ABit boards, they are iconic enthusiast motherboards with detailed BIOS features, but in that time period they all have bad caps. This is why they went out of business.

The Gigabyte boards I've seen in that period also had bad caps, but maybe not as bad as ABit's. I'd avoid them, though.

AOpen, Asus, and Intel had good capacitors in the 440BX Slot-1 era.
Probably Tyan and Supermicro, but I'm not sure about them.
I have a mainstream Tyan socket-7 board from ~1998-99 and I think it had a mix of mostly Sanyo caps (good) but also some that were cheap.
I've seen some bad caps on later Supermicro boards but I don't know about the late 90s.
Most manufacturers had bad caps unfortunately.

There might be a strong supply of Intel SE440BX-2 or similar model boards available, maybe at decent prices. Around maybe 10 years ago a warehouse in the US sold thousands of them as new old stock. There's probably a lot of them in resale nowadays, maybe some got over to Europe.
These are very conservative boards with limited options (made by Intel, after all), but they are very reliable.

Intel's Slot-1 boards were also used in Dell computers. You might find more of the Dell version than the Intel version. The Dell version will have a Dell logo on it, the Intel version will have an Intel logo. The Intel version works with a standard ATX power supply and that's the one you probably want.
The Dell branded versions of these boards require a different power supply, or an adapter. You might find a good bargain on these boards because most people avoid them, but if you don't want to deal with the power supply issue, don't get a Dell branded board.

If your friend is looking for a P3 at 450-600MHz, then it sounds like he's looking for a Katmai CPU (which runs on the same 2.0V that previous Pentium 2 does). There are some Coppermine CPUs in that clock range which are faster, but they use a lower voltage and you have to pay attention to whether the motherboard supports them.
Many 440BX motherboards can run Coppermines without actually saying they do in their documentation, so follow up with that if you need help with it.
This applies to the Asus P2B - many of them have Coppermine support prior to when it became official.

Thx a lot for the info about the cap problematic. That was very nice read.

Also a big thanks for letting me know about the difference between Katami and Coppermine. Was not aware of that yet to be honest. it is also good to know that many 440bx moterboards can run coppermine cpu without actually saying it.

The intel 440bx mainboards really sound like decent option for him as well. We found plenty of them on places like ebay kleinanzeigen and some of them were not that expensive.

The cpus are also not that expensive.

We even found a seller of p3 450 mhz and Intel Pentium III 600E SL5BT who is located in our home town ready to pick up. So my pal could even save the shipping cost.

We also found another p3 600 mhz called SL3NL 60 from an seller from Germany. The specs of the these 2 p3 are similar so I wonder what are the differences between these 2 cpu?

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 03:44:

shamino wrote on 2023-08-08, 22:17:

Intel had good capacitors in the 440BX Slot-1 era.

You are comparing business class with mass market.
Intel (or the same Fujitsu and Siemens) motherboards were designed to last decades in some CNC machine, not to be replaced after 3 years due to obsolescence.

I think "business class" is a vague distinction. Anything that's suitable for an average office PC is also reasonable for a home PC.
Intel made plenty of mainstream motherboards. The SE440BX boards, for example, are quite ordinary, but reliable.
DIY enthusiasts usually didn't want them but they were available. Prebuilt systems used them by the truckload. I doubt more than 1% went into industrial applications.

To me the whole capacitor discussion is a bit weird. Prices are at an all time high, so being picky about which boards you want (because of basic things like... caps), will significantly narrow down your options. Nowadays, the 'best boards' are the ones you can find for a good price (regardless of their capacitors). This way, you can find great deals (most boards I have were purchased for $5 - $10 and I obviously had to recap many of them, but since it's a 30 minute "job"... it's really not a concern).

At this point, especially if you/your friend intend on using the retro PC extensively (and unless you find a board that comes with excellent Japanese caps like Rubycon), I would still suggest to replace all caps from the get-go. If you don't have the skills/equipment to do it, you can go to a nearby computer repair shop and they will do it for you. Searching for specific unicorn boards/brands in the hopes that they might have good caps will most likely end up being more expensive than actually buying any decent board you can find and recapping it.

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-09, 06:24:

The intel 440bx mainboards really sound like decent option for him as well. We found plenty of them on places like ebay kleinanzeigen and some of them were not that expensive.

They're good boards, just understand they don't let you tweak memory timings or overclock anything. They were designed for conservative buyers. They just autodetect your hardware and run it according to official specs.

We even found a seller of p3 450 mhz and Intel Pentium III 600E SL5BT who is located in our home town ready to pick up. So my pal could even save the shipping cost.

We also found another p3 600 mhz called SL3NL 60 from an seller from Germany. The specs of the these 2 p3 are similar so I wonder what are the differences between these 2 cpu?

Both of those 600MHz CPUs are Coppermines, so not all boards can run them. Some boards that can run them might still require a BIOS flash before they will work.
The P3 450MHz should work on almost any 440BX board, but a few might still need a BIOS flash even for that CPU.
The most compatible CPU for doing a BIOS flash would be a Pentium-2 (not 3). Every 440BX board should work with any Pentium-2.

Those 600MHz CPUs are almost the same, but the SL5BT is a later version with a later core stepping.
https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL3NL.html
SL3NL is core stepping cA2 (older)

https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL5BT.html
SL5BT is core stepping cD0 (later)

I've had both of those steppings before - I tested two 600E cD0 CPUs at 840MHz, and I didn't try going any higher. The 600E cA2 couldn't go beyond the 700s. But if your friend won't be interested in overclocking then this might not matter.

If the price is good, then that P3 450MHz and the 600MHz SL5BT would be a good pair of CPUs to grab. Between those 2 CPUs, he'd probably have a good and workable CPU for whatever board he gets - assuming he does get a Slot-1 board and not a socket-370.

==
When looking at Pentium 3s, you'll probably notice the name might have an "E" or a "B" at the end. In the name "600E" the "E" means it's a Coppermine (so the voltage is less than 2V). If there's a "B" (like 600B or 600EB) then it runs on a 133MHz frontside bus clock, which the 440BX does not support. The i815 can run those, though.

For a 440BX, the most compatible model is "600/100/2.05V" - but those are also the least common and they run hotter. The "600E" is compatible with a 440BX board if it supports Coppermine voltages.
The 440BX does not properly support a "600B" or a "600EB". They will usually run but at a slower speed (450MHz instead of 600MHz).
The i815 can run any Pentium 3 600MHz.

I hope that's organized enough to not be confusing to read. 😀

shamino wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:39:

If there's a "B" (like 600B or 600EB) then it runs on a 133MHz frontside bus clock, which the 440BX does not support. The i815 can run those, though.

The 440BX does not officially support FSB 133, but you will have a hard time finding 440BX boards that actually have issues when running at this speed. I for one have only encountered just a few out of hundreds that I tested. Of course, the AGP card you use will matter, though - quite a few will refuse to work when the AGP bus is overclocked @ 89 MHz.

bloodem wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:44:

shamino wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:39:

If there's a "B" (like 600B or 600EB) then it runs on a 133MHz frontside bus clock, which the 440BX does not support. The i815 can run those, though.

The 440BX does not officially support FSB 133, but you will have a hard time finding 440BX boards that actually have issues when running at FSB133. I for one have only encountered a few out of hundreds that I tested. Of course, the AGP card you use will matter, though - not all work when the AGP bus is overclocked @ 89 MHz.

I disagree slightly, I think the overclockability of this chipset is a bit exaggerated. I've encountered plenty of 440BX boards that were marginal or plainly failed stability tests at 133MHz. I'd agree the majority can do it with an ample safety margin, but it's not as universal as it's made out to be IMO. In addition to the AGP clock, some boards also don't have the appropriate PCI divider setting.

I'm not sure if the buyer has any interest getting into overclocking, they might just want something that works as easily as possible. If they do want to experience this aspect of being a late 90s PC gamer, though, then that could influence what parts they should look for. Definitely no Intel boards in that case.

VIA Apollo 133 had support for 133MHz FSB on SLOT-1. Asus and QDI for example.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:54:

I disagree slightly, I think the overclockability of this chipset is a bit exaggerated. I've encountered plenty of 440BX boards that were marginal or plainly failed stability tests at 133MHz. I'd agree the majority can do it with an ample safety margin, but it's not as universal as it's made out to be IMO. In addition to the AGP clock, some boards also don't have the appropriate PCI divider setting.

Interesting... I would say that you were either very unlucky, or one or more of the components you used during your tests did not support the out-of-spec frequency.
My experience is totally different. Out of 100+ 440BX boards tested in the past 5 years (and I should mention that I always test the boards extensively, for multiple days), only a few had issues and some of those issues were actually hard to spot, it's not what I would call 'general instability'. Only one board that I remember was completely unstable beyond 124 MHz (Epox EP-BX3, which was probably just a failed north bridge silicon lottery in my particular case).

Indeed, there are some boards that don't support the 1/4 PCI divider, but most good boards have clock generator ICs that fully supported it.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:39:

They're good boards, just understand they don't let you tweak memory timings or overclock anything. They were designed for cons […]
Show full quote

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-09, 06:24:

The intel 440bx mainboards really sound like decent option for him as well. We found plenty of them on places like ebay kleinanzeigen and some of them were not that expensive.

They're good boards, just understand they don't let you tweak memory timings or overclock anything. They were designed for conservative buyers. They just autodetect your hardware and run it according to official specs.

We even found a seller of p3 450 mhz and Intel Pentium III 600E SL5BT who is located in our home town ready to pick up. So my pal could even save the shipping cost.

We also found another p3 600 mhz called SL3NL 60 from an seller from Germany. The specs of the these 2 p3 are similar so I wonder what are the differences between these 2 cpu?

Both of those 600MHz CPUs are Coppermines, so not all boards can run them. Some boards that can run them might still require a BIOS flash before they will work.
The P3 450MHz should work on almost any 440BX board, but a few might still need a BIOS flash even for that CPU.
The most compatible CPU for doing a BIOS flash would be a Pentium-2 (not 3). Every 440BX board should work with any Pentium-2.

Those 600MHz CPUs are almost the same, but the SL5BT is a later version with a later core stepping.
https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL3NL.html
SL3NL is core stepping cA2 (older)

https://www.cpu-world.com/sspec/SL/SL5BT.html
SL5BT is core stepping cD0 (later)

I've had both of those steppings before - I tested two 600E cD0 CPUs at 840MHz, and I didn't try going any higher. The 600E cA2 couldn't go beyond the 700s. But if your friend won't be interested in overclocking then this might not matter.

If the price is good, then that P3 450MHz and the 600MHz SL5BT would be a good pair of CPUs to grab. Between those 2 CPUs, he'd probably have a good and workable CPU for whatever board he gets - assuming he does get a Slot-1 board and not a socket-370.

==
When looking at Pentium 3s, you'll probably notice the name might have an "E" or a "B" at the end. In the name "600E" the "E" means it's a Coppermine (so the voltage is less than 2V). If there's a "B" (like 600B or 600EB) then it runs on a 133MHz frontside bus clock, which the 440BX does not support. The i815 can run those, though.

For a 440BX, the most compatible model is "600/100/2.05V" - but those are also the least common and they run hotter. The "600E" is compatible with a 440BX board if it supports Coppermine voltages.
The 440BX does not properly support a "600B" or a "600EB". They will usually run but at a slower speed (450MHz instead of 600MHz).
The i815 can run any Pentium 3 600MHz.

I hope that's organized enough to not be confusing to read. 😀

Thanks a lot for your detailed answer. Everything was very clear and was a big help for us.

I have to say that @bloodem has a point though about the cap discussion. I find it really intriguing but in the end, it is futile. Looking for the ultimate board is futile in the end. The situation is not going to get better. It is more likely that it is getting worse. The price and the availability situation is not going to change.

I retro perspective I was really lucky to get complete intel 440bx system ( asus p2b with a p2 400 mhz) at a garage sale for almost nothing.

Was not familiar with the price of the Intel 440bx boards before I decided to help my buddy but as of now he would have to pay much more than I did for an Asus P2b complete system. The Asus board alone would be much more expensive.

So the best advice is to grab what is available and in the long run, it cannot be avoided anyway to either learn to replace the caps or find someone or a company that can do it.

@steff80 Thx for the info as well.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-08, 22:17:

If you don't want to mess with capacitors then absolutely stay away from ABit. I love ABit boards, they are iconic enthusiast motherboards with detailed BIOS features, but in that time period they all have bad caps. This is why they went out of business.

The capacitor plague affected capacitors produced in the years from 1999 on. Many Slot 1 boards are older and many companies were affected. Abit was only more prominent in the media. And they went out of business because of shady management practices. At least that's my knowledge about that part of history 😀
Now it all doesn't really matter because any 25 year old board can have bad caps. So I subscribe to bloodem's "the 'best boards' are the ones you can find for a good price"

shamino wrote on 2023-08-09, 07:08:

I think "business class" is a vague distinction.

It's like a business jet
The charm of minimalist high-end products. 😀
Motherboards from Intel, Fujitsu and Siemens are greatly underestimated. The beauty of them is that they just work and don't cause problems.

bloodem wrote on 2023-08-09, 08:23:

Out of 100+ 440BX boards tested in the past 5 years

440BX is interesting only for one thing - the ability to support 1 GB of RAM.
Everything else is worse (or no better) than i815.
And 440BX at bus 133 with 4 memory sticks is still not much fun.
4 same stick of PC133 RAM with CL2 so that they are more or less guaranteed to work everything together on CL3 with 440BX.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 10:44:

440BX is interesting only for one thing - the ability to support 1 GB of RAM.
Everything else is worse (or no better) than i815.

That's definitely not why the 440BX chipset is interesting/appealing to retro enthusiasts like me. People generally use these boards for Win98 gaming (an OS which doesn't even need more than 512 MB of memory and it actually requires patches / workarounds to get going with more than that).
The appeal of the 440BX chipset is that it's very fast (usually faster than the i815 chipset in games), it's extremely compatible, very stable and.... last but surely not least: 440BX boards usually have at least 2 ISA slots. Oh, and it's also about the history and what this chipset meant for the industry (there is a reason why it's so iconic and highly regarded to this day).
So, I have to disagree: to me, the i815 chipset is worse in every way. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad chipset by any means, but it's... boring, it has nothing special going for it.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 10:44:

And 440BX at bus 133 with 4 memory sticks is still not much fun.
4 same stick of PC133 RAM with CL2 so that they are more or less guaranteed to work everything together on CL3 with 440BX.

Don't think I understood what you meant here, but I use 3 or 4 sticks of high density 128 MB PC133 Samsung or Kingston RAM whenever I'm testing 440 BX boards (which translates to either 256 MB or 192 MB of detected memory, because only half of it is recognized), and these sticks work perfectly at 133 MHz / with tight timings (CL2), as can be seen in this video of mine: https://youtu.be/cEOjvsNI8pE?t=33
In my 440BX builds I also have various other RAM brands (low or hight density) and they also work fine at CL2. To this day, I have yet to find a 440BX motherboard that doesn't work perfectly fine at FSB 133 / with CL2 timings (that is: if said board works @ FSB 133, it will also work with CL2).

bloodem wrote on 2023-08-09, 11:20:

The appeal of the 440BX chipset is that it's very fast (usually faster than the i815 chipset in games),

~1% faster then i815 😀

bloodem wrote on 2023-08-09, 11:20:

Don't think I understood what you meant here

PC133 CL2 RAM has less input capacitance, then CL3.Not much, just 10 percent.
But 4 double-sided modules is about another 80% of the capacity, i.e. another ninth row of IC.
Therefore, in order for 4 modules to work stably on the 133 bus with CL3 on the 440BX, you need to install 4 modules certified for PC133 CL2.
Or sort through tons of CL3 modules in different combinations of memory slots until you're lucky and RAM errors will not disappear.
3 modules is not a capricious combination, almost any not damaged memory will do.
But who interesting about 768MB?
It's easier to take i815, it works with any memory.

PS. About ISA.
For DOS 440BX usually too fast.
For Windows 98 - you can find more interesting system spec.
I think that the classic combination 440BX + Tualatin is somewhat overrated, and generally meaningless.
Sorry.
But for a collection, it's nice to have.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 12:44:

~1% faster then i815 😀

Yes, but not relevant. What is relevant/interesting is the fact that this older chipset, which has all the advantages that I mentioned, is also (a bit) faster. And this is precisely why the 440BX was and still is so loved by many to this day.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 12:44:

PC133 CL2 RAM has less input capacitance, then CL3.Not much, just 10 percent. But 4 double-sided modules is about another 80% of […]
Show full quote

PC133 CL2 RAM has less input capacitance, then CL3.Not much, just 10 percent.
But 4 double-sided modules is about another 80% of the capacity, i.e. another ninth row of IC.
Therefore, in order for 4 modules to work stably on the 133 bus with CL3 on the 440BX, you need to install 4 modules certified for PC133 CL2.
Or sort through tons of CL3 modules in different combinations of memory slots until you're lucky and RAM errors will not disappear.
3 modules is not a capricious combination, almost any not damaged memory will do.
But who intresting about 768MB?

Never ran into these issues myself (probably because I only use single-sided RAM sticks), but I guess it's possible. Personally, I never worry about memory (or much else) when dealing with the 440BX chipset, it had excellent memory compatibility (for the time).

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 12:44:

For DOS 440BX usually too fast.

The Ezra-T will disagree on this one 😁
But yeah, the standard choice (Pentium 3) will be problematic for quite a few old DOS titles. It all depends on the DOS games you play.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-09, 12:44:

For Windows 98 - you can find more interesting system spec.
I think that the classic combination 440BX + Tualatin is somewhat overrated, and generally meaningless.

I do agree with this. The Win98 PC I'm playing with now is running a Core 2 Duo E7500 / 2 GB RAM (with R. Loew's patch) / Hercules 3D Prophet Radeon 9800 PRO / Audigy 2 ZS... and it's a joy to use. Also, surprisingly, it works very well in DOS (even with some speed sensitive games, which is probably an effect of the Audigy's SB emulation).
Though, as I mentioned various times, my favorite flexible Win98/DOS platform remains Socket A.