VOGONS


Reply 60 of 73, by SiliconClassics

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Before I throw my two cents in, let's spell out each generation of PC hardware and the revolutionary new capabilities it offered:

8088-286: Documents & number crunching, low-color 2D graphics & games, text-based network communication (BBS, Telnet, etc)

386/486: Windowed GUI apps, 256-color images and flat-shaded 3D games, simple static web browsing

Pentium: 24-bit high resolution images, low-res video, 3D textured VGA games, rich dynamic web browsing

Pentium II/III: Accelerated SVGA 3D games, broadcast-quality streaming video, flash & script-based interactive web browsing

Pentium IV/Core: HD streaming video and HD 3D photorealistic games

i3/i5/i7: No novel capabilities

With this as a roadmap, the question is how much are you willing to give up? I think that once you can enjoy on-demand NTSC-resolution video content then 90% of your educational/business/entertainment needs are met. Society could easily revert to 640x480 streaming video on their phones and PCs with no fundamental sacrifice to usability or enjoyment, so if we all went back to using fast Pentium III systems with well-optimized software life would go on undisturbed.

This makes sense, since the consensus seems to be that PCs started to get boring in the early 2000s, which roughly correlates to the end of the P3 era. That's when PCs ceased to be revolutionary.

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Reply 61 of 73, by squareguy

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Here is an interesting point to consider. How far back would you go to trust your hardware? You can be about 99% sure that there are backdoors now at a hardware level, like inside of your CPU. It would take equipment in the millions, a lot of expertise, a lot of luck and and a long, long time to discover such a backdoor. I think a good dual P2 system, maximum amount of RAM the board will support, open source AMD video drivers (2D only) and a lightweight Linux or BSD distro may be the way to go.

Gateway 2000 Case and 200-Watt PSU
Intel SE440BX-2 Motherboard
Intel Pentium III 450 CPU
Micron 384MB SDRAM (3x128)
Compaq Voodoo3 3500 TV Graphics Card
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Western Digital 7200-RPM, 8MB-Cache, 160GB Hard Drive
Windows 98 SE

Reply 62 of 73, by fyy

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squareguy wrote:

It would take equipment in the millions, a lot of expertise, a lot of luck and and a long, long time to discover such a backdoor.

You're giving the government too much credit. People are lazy, including those who work for the government. And in fact the best way to get data on people information probably isn't even a government entity - it's Facebook and Google, commercial entities. The government can't even run a stable and secure website (ie healthcare.gov). It's all the NSA, a small part of the government, which itself is also given too much credit. The world is like high school, with a million different cliques all trying to do what is in their interest at the same time while the world changes.

Last edited by fyy on 2014-11-20, 03:37. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 63 of 73, by squareguy

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It only takes a corporation to do so, not the government.

Gateway 2000 Case and 200-Watt PSU
Intel SE440BX-2 Motherboard
Intel Pentium III 450 CPU
Micron 384MB SDRAM (3x128)
Compaq Voodoo3 3500 TV Graphics Card
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Western Digital 7200-RPM, 8MB-Cache, 160GB Hard Drive
Windows 98 SE

Reply 64 of 73, by fyy

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squareguy wrote:

It only takes a corporation to do so, not the government.

People are lazy. The increasing invasions of privacy we receive today is primarily due to advertising, not because of some malicious intent. If I have a product I want everyone to buy, I want that product to be known, so I have to advertise. Hey you bought your new computer from Dell? Maybe if I give Dell a stack of money they'll integrate my trial software into the base Windows 8 image used for their new desktop. Then maybe you'll like it and buy it when the trial runs out.

That's Bloatware.

Oh you need to download OpenOffice to do some work? Maybe I'll buy an ad slot from Google and make my ad on Google only appear when someone searches Google for OpenOffice. That way when you download "my" repacked version of OpenOffice, you'll get WeatherBug installed as well and I'll be paid for bundling it. WeatherBug then pretends to be useful giving you the weather and also sends you ads, and they get paid.

That's Adware.

Oh you bought a new smart TV from LG? Great! Make sure you use that USB port a lot, we're interested in what files you have so we can do database compares and sell that info to advertisers. We're also interested in what channels you watch so we can sell that info to advertisers. Smart tvs watch dumb people watch smart tvs, it's amazing!

That's Spyware.

The common theme throughout all this is advertising. It's "free" money to anyone that has an audience, whether that audience is a "viewer" or a "customer". Everyone would like free money. Because people are lazy.

Reply 65 of 73, by sliderider

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smeezekitty wrote:
:cool: […]
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Anonymous Coward wrote:

And that's the reason why I abandoned mainstream entertainment in the mid-1990's, I could see where it was going and just gave up. Computing in general (and retro-computing in particular) is my entertainment now, along with watching pre-1990's movies and TV series once in a while.

Couldn't agree more.

I think the slowest PC I could tolerate using is an 8088. You can get LOTS of stuff done with just text mode. But for multi media type stuff the lowest I could tolerate would be a 486 with a 72Hz 800x600 display.

😎

Sure beats those that can't tolerate anything slower than a Core2

With optimized software, you can go much lower even with fairly rich content.

But you can't play games or use apps that are highly dependent on multi-threading. Even a single core Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading isn't good enough for most of todays software. A Core2 Duo or Core2 Quad cpu can still handle a lot of modern apps. Most of the online games that I play REQUIRE a dual or quad core CPU now because there are too many processes happening at the same time for a single core CPU to be able to cope.

Reply 66 of 73, by meisterister

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Alright, going back to the OP, I'll throw in my $0.02:

How far back do you think the modern world could "operate" normally on?

This is actually really tough to answer. I'd say that the biggest sticking point would actually be the economy as a whole, however high-frequency trading goes back to the '90s when it was legalized. I think that it would be safe to assert that the minimum system requirements for the modern world are some sort of 486en. The 486 was a massive leap forward in terms of performance due to its pipeline and integrated FPU (in the DX models). All that has been done since then is the addition of more pipelines and the hardware to make efficient use of them. The 486 was also the sort of unofficial requirement for proper preemptively multitasked modern OSes (the 386 was technically the base minimum, but only by a veeery slim margin).

If process tech were still allowed to advance, we'd first see accelerator cards for video decompression, etc become popular, followed by a massive push for clock rates, followed by parallelism. We'd end up in the same place, but with hardware that would seem very foreign to us now.

If process tech were not allowed to advance, then I'd expect dual-socket motherboards to become popular in the desktop computer market as performance gains could not be made by cranking clocks or tech. After the dual-socket revolution, I'd expect there to be to be integration of multiple dies on the same substrate a la the Pentium D.

If everyone's iphones, androids, and i7's disappeared for example.

If it all disappeared, I'd expect people to first be extremely angry, but they'd get used to it (if you took my desktop away, I'd scream at you for about a week and then stare at you sullenly for a while before buying a shiny new 486.) The PC market would completely tank, however, as an unfortunate number of the people introduced to computers by the internet and mobile revolutions would be unable to handle Windows 95 and DOS-esque operating systems. After the resulting crunch and perhaps economic collapse, I'd expect programmer wages and job security to rise massively as it would become a more specialized skillset with greater resistance to outsourcing.

Another interesting effect is that HD television would disappear overnight, as the hardware resources to encode and decode it would far exceed available computational capacity. Whatever few factories still manufacture CRTs would likely enjoy their sudden windfall as people replaced their now magically broken flat panel TVs with tech that was viable in the 486 era.

Would the 15 year old kid with his i5 still be a "gamer" if all he had was a 386?

Yes, yes he would. In fact, I think that the gamer/PC enthusiast segment would be thrilled to know that it is now the entire PC market, and that hardware manufacturers would cater only to their wants and needs.

Would the libraries be filled with people sitting on computers if all the computers were DOS machines?

Ehhh, it depends. Libraries would still likely have computers available for people to use (especially if they could set up some sort of book search system on them), but I wouldn't expect them to be full of people using those computers.

To be honest, I have an optimistic outlook of the whole thing, because people like us who actually use and cherish this sort of hardware would suddenly be in demand 🤣

Dual Katmai Pentium III (450 and 600MHz), 512ish MB RAM, 40 GB HDD, ATI Rage 128 | K6-2 400MHz / Pentium MMX 166, 80MB RAM, ~2GB Quantum Bigfoot, Awful integrated S3 graphics.

Reply 67 of 73, by duncan

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Hi,
after having built a few older rigs the last three weeks (from AM5x86-133 to PIII-700), my two cent:
As much as I love the 486 in it´s later versions, combined with some early graphic cards capable of 3D, I experienced a bottleneck which is .... going on my nerves: IDE speed. Having "only" some SIS- chipset based PCI-boards, I don´t remember if the ALI/UMC ones had true busmastering, higher-than-PIO4 IDE buses. Data transfer simply is too slow here, even using out-of-correct-time 8GB HDDs with 7200rpm. SCSI-2 is not much better in those systems. Therefor I´d vote for the generation of late S7/SS7 hardware, and for MUCH better programming of available software. With those, most of recent, useful (means needed for economy and entertainment) applications could be run. Okay, the gamer striving for photorealistic graphics might not be satisfied (but I´m not sure here - with proper programming there might be quite some stuff possible without the blown up hardware one seems to need nowadays), but society could function without a lot of hindrance due to missing hardware specs.
Just my opinion,
greetings duncan

Gibt es hier Freiburger? Interessiert an Kontakten.

Reply 68 of 73, by smeezekitty

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But you can't play games or use apps that are highly dependent on multi-threading. Even a single core Pentium 4 with Hyperthreading isn't good enough for most of todays software. A Core2 Duo or Core2 Quad cpu can still handle a lot of modern apps. Most of the online games that I play REQUIRE a dual or quad core CPU now because there are too many processes happening at the same time for a single core CPU to be able to cope.

That's only because that is what is available. If hardware didn't advance to the Core2 era, then software would better better optimized for slow CPUs and low RAM

Yes games would be less graphically exciting but overall most modern things we appreciate today would be possible using optimized software and a P3. Even P2, P1 or 486 class can be quite usable with the right software

Reply 69 of 73, by oerk

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meisterister wrote:

If process tech were not allowed to advance, then I'd expect dual-socket motherboards to become popular in the desktop computer market as performance gains could not be made by cranking clocks or tech. After the dual-socket revolution, I'd expect there to be to be integration of multiple dies on the same substrate a la the Pentium D.

That is exactly what happened. When Intel/AMD hit a brick wall in the mid 2000's by not being able to push clock speeds much higher, they invented multi core processors, and later on went for efficiency instead of clock speed.

Reply 70 of 73, by awgamer

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squareguy wrote:

Here is an interesting point to consider. How far back would you go to trust your hardware? You can be about 99% sure that there are backdoors now at a hardware level, like inside of your CPU. It would take equipment in the millions, a lot of expertise, a lot of luck and and a long, long time to discover such a backdoor. I think a good dual P2 system, maximum amount of RAM the board will support, open source AMD video drivers (2D only) and a lightweight Linux or BSD distro may be the way to go.

Intel added government spying to sandybridge on forward, powers up from stored energy on the board, 3d wireless, spy on you or brick your system, with the pretext of stopping thieves: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/23/intel … _with_wakeon3g/

Reply 71 of 73, by smeezekitty

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awgamer wrote:
squareguy wrote:

Here is an interesting point to consider. How far back would you go to trust your hardware? You can be about 99% sure that there are backdoors now at a hardware level, like inside of your CPU. It would take equipment in the millions, a lot of expertise, a lot of luck and and a long, long time to discover such a backdoor. I think a good dual P2 system, maximum amount of RAM the board will support, open source AMD video drivers (2D only) and a lightweight Linux or BSD distro may be the way to go.

Intel added government spying to sandybridge on forward, powers up from stored energy on the board, 3d wireless, spy on you or brick your system, with the pretext of stopping thieves: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/23/intel … _with_wakeon3g/

No offense but that looks like pure tinfoil hat theorist nonsense

Reply 73 of 73, by smeezekitty

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awgamer wrote:

Slightly alarming but it appears to only be included on the vPro series.
Also waking the hard drive would be impossible without bringing up full system power