Good luck with benches on AGP with higher end AGP cards where the CPU isn't the bottleneck.. at least at lower resolutions.

You would need to bench on XP as even the 5950U is CPU bottlenecked in 3DMark 2001 up until about 3.2-3.3Ghz Core 2 X6800 in 98SE at default 3DMark resolution.

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-05-03, 15:34:

For XP on up, ISA really is irrelevant so all these are primarily for pre-XP builds.

I know.... Been into computers and used computers since around mid-80's. Have seen things evolve and all that jazz.
I only stopped following the newest new hardware around 2008 and went full Linux on daily driver in April of 2016.

Munx wrote on 2023-05-03, 15:59:

brostenen wrote on 2023-05-03, 09:30:

What is the deal with all that Socket 478 and Socket-A lately?
Are this becomming the "new black"?

When it comes to retro gaming/PC building, nostalgia is the driving factor. People who grew up with such systems (like me) are now in their 30's. And since they are still cheap and plentiful, they will often be coming up for years to come.

While I didn't have a s478 system myself (went from S462 to 939), I still remember drooling over a demonstration system in a PC shop near where I lived that had a big "experience the power of Pentium 4!" sign on it.

I know.... C64/Amiga/286 is were I started my knowledge on computers. Now I am 47 years of age, but I have lost a bit of connection on what is basically the new black. Or you can say, were the popularity of so called retro computing are heading. The last 4 years, I have gone more and more my own ways and back to my childhood and teenage years, in regards to interrest in old computers. Like building my own Commodore64 machines (that would be in pluralis) from scratch. I have more or less lost interrest in Windows, but as I have a Mac Mini late-2009 that can run WindowsXP. Then I am kind of relearning XP at this point. Else I have actually not used any other Windows versions at all, the last like many years. My daily OS since April 2016 have been Linux, except for that MacBook Pro 2011 that I have, on were I wrote the speech for my daughters konfirmation.

But yeah.... I am not new to computers. Like one web programmer education I do have and on hobby level I have somewhat 37/38 years of experience. From around September 2003 to April 2006, I were a system builder, and build like 12 to 14 XP computers each work day (8 hours work each work day).

Kahenraz wrote on 2023-05-03, 20:07:

I extrapolated from my experience with PCIe cards in Windows 9x. I may abe wrong, actually. I hadn't taken into consideration th […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote on 2023-05-03, 19:18:

Are you sure these won't work in Windows 9x? I have read some comments that they aren't perfect, but I've also seen discussions about 7xxx series being fine in 9x. Unless it's a specific issue with the 7600 cards because of the bridge chip? I have one identical to this, but I haven't tried in on 9x. Depending on the game it should perform somewhere between a 6600GT and 6800GS as far as I can tell.

Also, a 512MB model sold recently on ebay for $95, so it is likely worth a lot more than $5 to someone. I'd have definitely bought one for $5 if I found it and it wasn't damaged.

I extrapolated from my experience with PCIe cards in Windows 9x. I may abe wrong, actually. I hadn't taken into consideration that it's an AGP card. Anything after the FX series starts to have compatibility issues in games, though. And now many games that run on Windows 98 would benefit from it? So I think its usefulness is still very limited for this use case. With few exceptions, FX cards are still a better choice.

Although it may depend greatly on the chipset, I was unable to get even GeForce FX cards that were for PCIe to work on either Windows 98 or ME.

Tetrium wrote on 2023-05-03, 19:11:

I remember playing UT3 using a 7600GS (and also a 6800) and it basically ran fine though.
We also played a (heavily modded) BF2, but with that game these cards did seem to sometimes struggle a bit when a lot of stuff was going on at the same time. But still very playable.

Does it really? I know that the 6800 would be fast enough, but I wasn't sure about the 7600 GS. I thought the "GS" branded cards might have been too cut down for Unreal Engine 3.

The 6800 and 7600GS cards I used had very similar performance. When gaming, it was impossible to tell which PC had which card in it judging from things like FPS.
Both these cards were used in my LAN rigs back in the day before they got replaced with AM3 systems. I used a second 7600GS in a different rig.
I really liked these 7600GS cards as these were the AGP passively cooled ones, to each I had mounted a case fan.

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working without issues.

Idea is to build compact competent DOS/Win 3.1 machine on P200MMX. There are reports that SIS530 on board AGP VGA supports Win 3.x
I'm amazed that Socket 7 MB sports jumper-less configuration via Award BIOS. I guess "I" in QDI is true then.
Sound is competent as well clean WSS/SBPro configurable via unisound. Well except that CX4235 FM part only engineer who designed it can love.
I also like understated classic green look - no "rainbow vomit" type of connectors ...
Whooping 1MB cache on motherboard as well

vutt wrote on 2023-05-04, 15:24:

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working […]
Show full quote

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working without issues.

Idea is to build compact competent DOS/Win 3.1 machine on P200MMX. There are reports that SIS530 on board AGP VGA supports Win 3.x
I'm amazed that Socket 7 MB sports jumper-less configuration via Award BIOS. I guess "I" in QDI is true then.
Sound is competent as well clean WSS/SBPro configurable via unisound. Well except that CX4235 FM part only engineer who designed it can love.
I also like understated classic green look - no "rainbow vomit" type of connectors ...
Whooping 1MB cache on motherboard as well

This is a good board for Windows 3.1. Early Matrox Millenniums and ATI Mach and Rage chips will have drivers and perform well.

vutt wrote on 2023-05-04, 15:24:

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working […]
Show full quote

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working without issues.

Idea is to build compact competent DOS/Win 3.1 machine on P200MMX. There are reports that SIS530 on board AGP VGA supports Win 3.x
I'm amazed that Socket 7 MB sports jumper-less configuration via Award BIOS. I guess "I" in QDI is true then.
Sound is competent as well clean WSS/SBPro configurable via unisound. Well except that CX4235 FM part only engineer who designed it can love.
I also like understated classic green look - no "rainbow vomit" type of connectors ...
Whooping 1MB cache on motherboard as well

interesting, how much ram can it take? i'd be tempted to jump right into win98se if it could take enough ram, despite the fact that it would be absolutely great with DOS / win3.1 or Windows 95 for that matter

i tried that with my own 166mmx with 64mb ram and to my surprise it all ran really well, perhaps not quite as responsive as windows 95 at odd occasions - but really good so i left it as all win98

brostenen wrote on 2023-05-04, 00:54:

Munx wrote on 2023-05-03, 15:59:

brostenen wrote on 2023-05-03, 09:30:

What is the deal with all that Socket 478 and Socket-A lately?
Are this becomming the "new black"?

When it comes to retro gaming/PC building, nostalgia is the driving factor. People who grew up with such systems (like me) are now in their 30's. And since they are still cheap and plentiful, they will often be coming up for years to come.

While I didn't have a s478 system myself (went from S462 to 939), I still remember drooling over a demonstration system in a PC shop near where I lived that had a big "experience the power of Pentium 4!" sign on it.

I know.... C64/Amiga/286 is were I started my knowledge on computers. Now I am 47 years of age, but I have lost a bit of connection on what is basically the new black. Or you can say, were the popularity of so called retro computing are heading. The last 4 years, I have gone more and more my own ways and back to my childhood and teenage years, in regards to interrest in old computers. Like building my own Commodore64 machines (that would be in pluralis) from scratch. I have more or less lost interrest in Windows, but as I have a Mac Mini late-2009 that can run WindowsXP. Then I am kind of relearning XP at this point. Else I have actually not used any other Windows versions at all, the last like many years. My daily OS since April 2016 have been Linux, except for that MacBook Pro 2011 that I have, on were I wrote the speech for my daughters konfirmation.

But yeah.... I am not new to computers. Like one web programmer education I do have and on hobby level I have somewhat 37/38 years of experience. From around September 2003 to April 2006, I were a system builder, and build like 12 to 14 XP computers each work day (8 hours work each work day).

I hear you, same age, same background only I switched to Linux earlier and even at some point switched architectures to non-x86 my last Microsoft product was Win98se and that's exactly where my nostalgia lies , even at that point many games were still DOS and a voodoo2 was more than enough. I had a Banshee which I still own.
Kind of funny for me a 20 years old PC is somewhat modern.

gerry wrote on 2023-05-04, 16:45:

vutt wrote on 2023-05-04, 15:24:

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working […]
Show full quote

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working without issues.

Idea is to build compact competent DOS/Win 3.1 machine on P200MMX. There are reports that SIS530 on board AGP VGA supports Win 3.x
I'm amazed that Socket 7 MB sports jumper-less configuration via Award BIOS. I guess "I" in QDI is true then.
Sound is competent as well clean WSS/SBPro configurable via unisound. Well except that CX4235 FM part only engineer who designed it can love.
I also like understated classic green look - no "rainbow vomit" type of connectors ...
Whooping 1MB cache on motherboard as well

interesting, how much ram can it take?

From manual: Minimum memory size is 8MB, maximum memory size is 1GB.

vutt wrote on 2023-05-04, 15:24:

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working […]
Show full quote

Found on local auction site "Lenovo" Socket 7 motherboard. Sold as not tested. Fortunately it turned on and seems to be working without issues.

Idea is to build compact competent DOS/Win 3.1 machine on P200MMX. There are reports that SIS530 on board AGP VGA supports Win 3.x
I'm amazed that Socket 7 MB sports jumper-less configuration via Award BIOS. I guess "I" in QDI is true then.
Sound is competent as well clean WSS/SBPro configurable via unisound. Well except that CX4235 FM part only engineer who designed it can love.
I also like understated classic green look - no "rainbow vomit" type of connectors ...
Whooping 1MB cache on motherboard as well

That's a Super Socket 7 board, so it should also work with a K6-2 if you feel like going that way:
https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/qdi-si … 0-matx-superb-1

The onboard SIS graphics should be fairly decent for basic stuff as well. Might make for an interesting setup combined with a dedicated 3D card.

vmunix wrote on 2023-05-04, 17:18:

brostenen wrote on 2023-05-04, 00:54:

Munx wrote on 2023-05-03, 15:59:

When it comes to retro gaming/PC building, nostalgia is the driving factor. People who grew up with such systems (like me) are now in their 30's. And since they are still cheap and plentiful, they will often be coming up for years to come.

While I didn't have a s478 system myself (went from S462 to 939), I still remember drooling over a demonstration system in a PC shop near where I lived that had a big "experience the power of Pentium 4!" sign on it.

I know.... C64/Amiga/286 is were I started my knowledge on computers. Now I am 47 years of age, but I have lost a bit of connection on what is basically the new black. Or you can say, were the popularity of so called retro computing are heading. The last 4 years, I have gone more and more my own ways and back to my childhood and teenage years, in regards to interrest in old computers. Like building my own Commodore64 machines (that would be in pluralis) from scratch. I have more or less lost interrest in Windows, but as I have a Mac Mini late-2009 that can run WindowsXP. Then I am kind of relearning XP at this point. Else I have actually not used any other Windows versions at all, the last like many years. My daily OS since April 2016 have been Linux, except for that MacBook Pro 2011 that I have, on were I wrote the speech for my daughters konfirmation.

But yeah.... I am not new to computers. Like one web programmer education I do have and on hobby level I have somewhat 37/38 years of experience. From around September 2003 to April 2006, I were a system builder, and build like 12 to 14 XP computers each work day (8 hours work each work day).

I hear you, same age, same background only I switched to Linux earlier and even at some point switched architectures to non-x86 my last Microsoft product was Win98se and that's exactly where my nostalgia lies , even at that point many games were still DOS and a voodoo2 was more than enough. I had a Banshee which I still own.
Kind of funny for me a 20 years old PC is somewhat modern.

Almost the same here. To me those early 00's machines are only usefull if they can run Win98, else they are all crap through the last half of the 00's. Except for when it is stuff like heavy duty workstations or special product like a few select Mac's. Mostly because I really like Unix, and Mac seems like the cheapest and most easy way to get and use a Unix system. Today I am using a 2017 HP ProDesk MT with Radeon and Ubuntu Mate installed as my main system. But anything Unix are cool. Anything that runs Win98 are also cool. As mentioned, then I am also using my Mac Mini 2009 as an XP gaming setup. It is small and runs Unix and can also run XP games up to around 2008'ish. But it is in a box at this moment, to free up desk space for my Amiga's.

However... I wonder if I should put up some of my Socket478/A stuff for sale on Amibay. I am not really into much Win98 at this moment and if someone want to buy, then why not. But then again, this stuff dont sell on Amibay, then it is kind of useless to make a sales add. (please DON'T contact me for stuff here)

Right, picked up an interesting one today...

I saw a local ad for 'old computer for parts'. Potatocam pics were intriguing, with an AT case falling apart, but with a massive pile of RCA connectors on the back and XLR on the front - and every available space inside crammed with coils and capacitors looking like audio amplifier parts. Then there was this huge full-length ISA card that at first looked like an IBM MFC (same 2x RCA and DE-9 connector, size and lots of discrete logic chips) - but orientation of chips was wrong so was something else. Also motherboard looked like an early Intel OEM Pentium board, probably one of the Batmen.

Bidding went higher than I was prepared to pay, but apparently the higher bidders gave up, so I got it after all. What did I get?

Front of case:

Rear:

Above:

Crazy inside pic (and no, no idea why the So4 HSF is dangling in the middle):

Then the bits:

TVGA8900CL ISA VGA, D-Link DE-220C ISA NIC, Mitsumi Floppy, 12x BTC CD-Rom drive and 240MB Conner HDD

Intel Batman's Revenge with P60 (no fdiv bug) and 2x 4MB FP SIMM

And THE card - a DRA Laboratories MLSSA Mothercard with two AFM-50 filters.

This is apparently a piece of very specialized kit used to measure characteristics of loudspeaker design and room acoustics. It looks like it's been modified by the original owner, and the whole system has been built around it, with amps, filters and other stuff I haven't even been able to figure out, some on custom soldered breadboards.

Best bit: apart from the CPU fan, PSU, and (no surprise) the DS1287 RTC, it all works 😁 - and that includes HDD which boots into the original MLSSA software that detects and initializes the card successfully. Judging by the names of saved files, it was used to determine acoustics of churches. That figures given where I picked it up, deep in the Dutch bible belt. Great, weird stuff.

Bought a few Intel OR840s off someone in a discord. Getting a working OEM one has been a nerd goal for a while, as I have an Intellistation version which is dead and has a short somewhere.

dionb wrote on 2023-05-04, 21:46:

Right, picked up an interesting one today... […]
Show full quote

Right, picked up an interesting one today...

I saw a local ad for 'old computer for parts'. Potatocam pics were intriguing, with an AT case falling apart, but with a massive pile of RCA connectors on the back and XLR on the front - and every available space inside crammed with coils and capacitors looking like audio amplifier parts. Then there was this huge full-length ISA card that at first looked like an IBM MFC (same 2x RCA and DE-9 connector, size and lots of discrete logic chips) - but orientation of chips was wrong so was something else. Also motherboard looked like an early Intel OEM Pentium board, probably one of the Batmen.

Bidding went higher than I was prepared to pay, but apparently the higher bidders gave up, so I got it after all. What did I get?

Front of case:
16832340181811.jpg

Rear:
16832339221730.jpg

Above:
16832340485932.jpg

Crazy inside pic (and no, no idea why the So4 HSF is dangling in the middle):
16832340886763.jpg

Then the bits:

TVGA8900CL ISA VGA, D-Link DE-220C ISA NIC, Mitsumi Floppy, 12x BTC CD-Rom drive and 240MB Conner HDD
16832341361065.jpg

Weird looking stuff indeed. I had that a very similar BTC cd-rom drive, which started to spin in reverse

I may catch some flak for posting these because they're probably considered too new to be "retro" by many, but they represent significant milestones in my PC journey throughout early adulthood.

First, an ASUS P5N32-E SLI socket T (775) motherboard, which is the same board I had when I built my first Core2Duo PC with an Intel E6600. I still have that same E6600 CPU but I might stick the QX6700 CPU I currently have in another PC in this one, not sure yet. Also not pictured are two brand new Nvidia 7950 GTs which I will run SLI. This will be a mostly period correct 2006-2007 system running XP.

Next, an ASUS Rampage II Extreme socket B (1366) with an Intel i7 980X and 12 GB of Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600 MHz triple channel RAM and the Creative audio PCI-E interface card. My original 1366 PC I built around 2009 was an i7 920 in probably a midrange ASUS board, but I wanted something more high end this time around since parts are relatively cheap. I don't have a video card chosen for this one yet. This will likely dual boot XP/7.

Next, an ASUS P8Z68-V Pro socket H2 (1155) with an Intel i5 2500k and 8 GB DDR3 1600 MHz dual channel RAM. This motherboard and CPU are the same ones I had when I built my 2011 PC. I bought three matching Nvidia GTX 580s for this build but I may only use two in SLI and shelf the other one. This will dual boot XP/7.

Finally, some additional Corsair Dominator DDR3 1600 MHz triple channel RAM, 12 GB total, purchased separately.

Brawndo wrote on 2023-05-05, 17:58:

I may catch some flak for posting these because they're probably considered too new to be "retro" by many, but they represent significant milestones in my PC journey throughout early adulthood.

well, i tend to hold retro as a fuzzy border about 15 years ago, some see it more as when windows 7 became the norm or some other milestone and others are stricter into 32 bits only

it's all ok i think, and these are pretty cool acquisitions - more so that they have particular meaning for you

dionb wrote on 2023-05-04, 21:46:

Then the bits:

TVGA8900CL ISA VGA, D-Link DE-220C ISA NIC, Mitsumi Floppy, 12x BTC CD-Rom drive and 240MB Conner HDD
16832341361065.jpg

Pics like that make me twitch.. due to all looking like parts I've got somewhere, and wondering if somebody broke in last night 🤣 ... Kidding of course, wouldn't accuse fellow Vogons of such a thing, y'all are smart enough to go for the high ticket stuff right? 🤣

Brawndo wrote on 2023-05-05, 17:58:

I may catch some flak for posting these because they're probably considered too new to be "retro" by many, but they represent significant milestones in my PC journey throughout early adulthood.

XP is retro (+20 years old), the first version came out in 2001, but since it's already an NT system, it's not very retro, is it?
That hardware is very powerful. You could run modern systems on those builds. Latest GNU/Linux, latest Windows. It all hinges on the amount of ram, and depending on what you do, you could even use them as a daily driver...

What could a Win7 computer run that Win10/11 doesn't run? Isn't it cheaper to buy a low-end new computer that also consumes less power? Of course I understand if it's just to experiment and learn, or collect.

I guess in the not so far future all desktop computers will be considered retro. With an ever increasing amount of highly TPMed/DRMed handhelds/cellphones/tablets for a less digitally savvy, touchscreen-only population.

Brawndo wrote on 2023-05-05, 17:58:

I may catch some flak for posting these because they're probably considered too new to be "retro" by many, but they represent significant milestones in my PC journey throughout early adulthood.

If 5 years ago a system from 2001 was retro (and checking old posts few doubted it was), one from 2005-2006 is more than retro now.

In purely technical terms something with ATX12V and PCIe can run with modern PSU and peripherals, which makes it less of a challenge than 5V heavy stuff or older AT form factor, but bottom line is this is stuff you're not using to run contemporary software and using for practical purposes, but something you're doing for fun with older parts & software. That's retro.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-05-06, 20:37:

[...]

Pics like that make me twitch.. due to all looking like parts I've got somewhere, and wondering if somebody broke in last night 🤣 ... Kidding of course, wouldn't accuse fellow Vogons of such a thing, y'all are smart enough to go for the high ticket stuff right? 🤣

Hell no, that high ticket stuff is overpriced and IMHO pointless with old stuff. The only reason to shell out for high-end gear is because nothing faster exists. With vintage stuff, except in corner cases (*the* fastest card using a certain technology) there's always mid-range stuff from one year later or low end-stuff from two years later. And these TVGA are useful workhorses, particularly as I just installed an 8800CS (relabeled as 'Zymos') in my surprise XT.

Still, tbh none of the bits in that pic were reason to go for this particular computer.