VOGONS


How good is this? (New PC)

Topic actions

First post, by olivil

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Hey there!
I'm new to this whole "retro PC" stuff, however I build "modern" PCs as part of my job, and studying electronic engineering and tinkering with lots of stuff I've assembled many vintage computer "sets" (Commodore 64 with monitor and disc drive, Amiga 1000, Atari 800 and ST520, etc) However, being only 18 years old I can't judge if the "new" PC I found for free is good for my needs.

What I want:
MS-DOS 6.22 & MAYBE Windows 3.11 (No Windows 95+)
Being able to play games from Alley Cat to Quake (Moslo is ok)

And now, the good part:
- The case says it's built in 1997
- Generic case, however has 3 green seven segment display displaying "200" (The CPU frequency? was that common? anyhow it looks cool)
- Impression TX533 Board (seems generic to me, apparently Intel 430TX based)
- Pentium MMX 200
- 49152K of RAM
- Quantum Fireball 30GB Hard Drive
- Sound Blaster AWE64 Value
- ATI Mach64 integrated graphics (says 600K memory?)
- 3.5 inch and 5.25 inch floppy drive + a CD drive
- I did mount a bigger PC speaker I had lying around (2-3 inch circ., 2 inch deep instead of the little cheap speaker)

Is this good? Should I upgrade some stuff?
Will I need a graphics card? Is there a way to get General Midi emulation or something with the AWE64 under DOS?

Thanks! 😀

Reply 1 of 139, by DonutKing

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Well that's definitely a windows 95/98 era machine, but it should run dos and Win 3.11 ok as well.

Check out Mau1wurf1977's threads he's done some experiments with disabling caches etc to slow the machine down for older games.

As for the AWE64, I don't own one but I believe they will do general MIDI but you will need the software for it and a soundfont loaded, and the size of your card's memory will limit your choice of soundfonts. Being a Value I believe they had less onboard memory than the other models of AWE64.

A better option for cheap general MIDI might be to track down an earlier model Sound Blaster with a DB50XG or XR385 wavetable daughterboard. I have a SB16 Vibra with the XR385 daughterboard and I quite like its general MIDI output.

Apart from that I wouldn't bother changing anything else, in fact the system is probably overkill for what you want to do with it 😜

Reply 2 of 139, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Yea that looks fine!

Check the BIOS and see if you have options for L1 and L2 Cache. If you disable both you will have ~ 386DX, if you disable only L1 you will have ~ 486DX2.

The AWE64 is a decent card, but not ideal for General MIDI as Creative was pushing the AWE synth instead. Many games support it directly. You can simply purchase an external Roland Sound Canvas MIDI module and then you are set.

The AWE64 does support General MIDI emulation under DOS, but is incompatible with some games. Still, it's better than nothing.

My website with reviews, demos, drivers, tutorials and more...
My YouTube channel

Reply 3 of 139, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

^agrees

A nice touch to your system is that it has the bigger floppy drive 🤣 😁
Your system is quite well suited for DOS, none of the parts are of real hindrance 😉

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 4 of 139, by olivil

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Great thanks guys 😀
Anybody got an external Roland Sound Canvas for sale under 100 shipped to Canada? Hehe
If I was to install Win95/98, what would I need? (I'm guessing a GPU and more RAM?)
I still don't completely understand the whole "different physical size of RAM" as I have 2 small RAM stick (like 4 inches wide) and then DDR sized sticks?
Any good source of information to a relative newbie on 1990's IBM PCs? 😜

Reply 5 of 139, by leileilol

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
olivil wrote:

If I was to install Win95/98, what would I need? (I'm guessing a GPU and more RAM?)

No. What you have is already ideal for that!

I'd recommend 98Lite, though. Using Win95's shell in Windows 98 could be a handy speed boost.

apsosig.png
long live PCem

Reply 6 of 139, by Tetrium

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
leileilol wrote:
olivil wrote:

If I was to install Win95/98, what would I need? (I'm guessing a GPU and more RAM?)

No. What you have is already ideal for that!

I'd recommend 98Lite, though. Using Win95's shell in Windows 98 could be a handy speed boost.

Wasn't 98Lite a paid program?

I tried to look for other ways to "lighten up" 98SE but the best thing I found was the unofficial service pack. I know msfn.org has some tweaks available, but as I've not tried an English 98SE before, I never bothered.

Reply 7 of 139, by Ace

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I just have one issue with your soon-to-be-MS-DOS computer: the SoundBlaster AWE64 Value. Its on-board MIDI typically sucks and if you like FM Synthesis, don't expect authentic FM sound because the AWE64 does not have true OPL3. There is no Yamaha YMF262 anywhere on the sound card, not as a discrete part nor integrated within another chip. It instead uses the CQM YMF262 clone, which doesn't sound right.

Have a look at these videos of Star Wars X-Wing to compare the CQM YMF262 clone and the real YMF262:

CQM clone from SoundBlaster AWE64 Value model CT4500: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-p-bvHAHg

Real YMF262 from SoundBlaster Pro 2.0: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9a42Yf11WU

I would personally recommend replacing your AWE64 Value with either a SoundBlaster 16 with a discrete YMF262, the YMF289(low-power version of the YMF262) or CT1747 combo YMF262/ISA interface chip(some SoundBlaster 16s use the CQM YMF262 clone, and those are instantly recognizable since no chip will say OPL or Yamaha), a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 a Yamaha YMF719(this has a YMF262 integrated within the YMF719 chip) or an OPTi 82C929A. These all have true OPL3 FM Synthesis, but there are some 82C929As with cloned YMF262s. It doesn't matter if you get an 82C929A with a real YMF262 or a clone, the clone sounds just as good and with better clarity than the real YMF262. Do take note that if you set the volume of the FM Synthesis too loud in the mixer settings on an 82C929A with a real YMF262, the sound will distort.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F2uU3K0Ps0

Or if you want something closer to true OPL3 without spending too much money, you can get an ESS AudioDrive sound card. Those use ESS' ESFM YMF262 clone, which is one of the most accurate cloned YMF262s you can find. It just has one minor problem with outputting white noise, but aside from that, it sounds pretty damn close to a real YMF262(the high frequencies are a little more pronounced on the ESFM than on a real YMF262).

Another little note: if you get a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, I will make note of this: it sounds better on cheap speakers because the quality of the digital sound is pretty poor compared to most of the sound cards I've used. The ESS AudioDrive is very similar in that regard, since, while the quality is a little bit better than the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0, the digital sound is VERY muffled. However, the AudioDrive will work with MIDI daughterboards, something the SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 will not work with(MIDI daughterboards are typically cheaper than external MIDI devices). The best digital sound I've heard comes from any SoundBlaster post-SoundBlaster Pro 2.0 and the OPTi 82C929A(in some DOS games, the pitch of the digital sound is slightly higher on the 82C929A for some reason). The 82C929A also supports MIDI daughterboards.

Or you can get an ISA MIDI-based sound card like the Ensoniq Soundscape. I really like mine; VERY nice sound. There are several different models of Soundscape to choose from:

-Original Soundscape(there seem to be 2 different variants of this one with different wavesets)
-Soundscape Elite
-Soundscape Opus
-Soundscape Vivo

The older Soundscapes generally sound best(original Soundscape and Soundscape Elite). If you want to hear different samples of the 4 types of Soundscape, you can take a look at Swaaye's sound card recordings page: http://www.swaaye.com/retro/

Or you can get an Ensoniq AudioPCI. This is a PCI-based sound card with some really nice MIDI. They're more readily available and cheaper than the Soundscape, but the Soundscape generally has better sound quality. Or you can get one of many Creative variants: SoundBlaster 16 PCI, SoundBlaster PCI64, SoundBlaster PCI128, SoundBlaster Vibra128, etc.

Last edited by Ace on 2011-02-19, 15:06. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 9 of 139, by Ace

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Now I feel like loading Doom onto my spare MS-DOS gaming computer and have a listen to its FM music on my SoundBlaster 16 WavEffects CT4170. Judging by your comment, Leileilol, it'll most likely make my ears bleed. Is it as bad as the FM music in the Sega 32X port of Doom(that sounds REALLY nasty)?

Creator of The Many Sounds of:, a collection of various DOS games played using different sound cards.

Reply 10 of 139, by olivil

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

For the AWE64's FM capability, well, honestly I don't use adlib that much. 😖
I won't hunt for a new card, but if I come across one I'll sure swap it tho.
I'm gonna hunt down a Roland SC-55 (Or the MKII?, or any other model for that matter? I have ~$250 including shipping), how would I go about having both the AWE64 and Roland installed?

Sorry for all my questions, you guys are great 😜
(Do you have audio or a video of Doom with FM music on a "good" card? I just tested it and it doesn't sound half-bad to me)

Reply 11 of 139, by Ace

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

On Swaaye's sound card recordings page, there are 3 samples of Doom's FM music played on a SoundBlaster Pro 2.0. They're titled SBPro2 - Doom E1M1, SBPro2 - Doom E1M2, and SBPro2 - Doom E1M3. Those clips are the true sound of Doom's FM music.

A little note: what people generally consider as AdLib is actually OPL2 FM Synthesis. OPL3 is more advanced than that(greater polyphony and Stereo panning), but is also fully backwards-compatible with OPL2.

EDIT: Forgot to mention one thing about the AWE64. In certain games, the digital sound will sometimes completely stop working until you pause and unpause the game. I've had this happen to me with the floppy disk edition of X-Wing(the Collector's CD-ROM edition doesn't have this problem) where whenever I'd use any of the SoundBlaster sound options, the digital sound would suddenly stop working. Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdoB-IKHHc4

And that's also an example of the AWE64's General MIDI. For the most part, I hate it, especially that trumpet sound, which sounds like crap.

Reply 12 of 139, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
olivil wrote:

I'm gonna hunt down a Roland SC-55 (Or the MKII?, or any other model for that matter? I have ~$250 including shipping), how would I go about having both the AWE64 and Roland installed?

Don't worry too much about all this FM talk. Most people weren't aware of these differences, never noticed a difference and still enjoyed the games! There are people who like the AWE64 FM better than the Yamaha FM. So it's quite subjective...

In case you do want to hear the difference, grab a Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 if you get the opportunity. Note that the SB Pro 2.0 doesn't have a MPU401 MIDI interface, so you will need to get one to drive a Sound Canvas or MT-32.

The AWE64 can be used to drive a MT-32 for most games, but not all of them. To play all games, you need a Roland MPU401 interface, the interface on most cards simply isn't 100% compatible.

Regarding Sound Canvas I recommend a SC-55. To hook everything up you need one of these joystick MIDI cables. If you want to use joystick, make sure it has the connectors for that.

I have a few Roland Videos on my Channel. Check out Doom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=316i0uV32WE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQBJYVushzQ

Reply 14 of 139, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
leileilol wrote:

The AWE64 Value will have freezing problems with some older games too. Duke Nukem II will hard freeze with digital sound enabled

I just tested this, as that game has an easy to obtain shareware version.

Well it works just fine on my SS7 machine (Pentium MMX) with an AWE64 value.

Cool intro with nice digital sound effects and even some speech (I'm Back). The gameplay also worked just fine.

Just for reference, be careful claiming something doesn't work, because there could be many many other factors in play...

Reply 15 of 139, by olivil

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

And where could I get a 100% compatible Roland MPU401 interface?
Is this part of some cards or is it a separate modules, because I have a cheapo SB Vibra16c lying around, would that do?

I already have some joystick-midi cables 😀

Reply 16 of 139, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

Sourcing a SCC-1 instead of a Sound Canvas would solve both your issues! It's a Sound Canvas AND MPU401 interface in a single card.

The other option is to find a Roland MPU401 card, but they can be just as hard to find as a SCC-1 and they won't be cheap unless you get lucky.

My website with reviews, demos, drivers, tutorials and more...
My YouTube channel

Reply 17 of 139, by DonutKing

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Honestly, I own both a Roland SC-55 and a SB16 with a DB50XG (well actually an NEC clone, the XR385 but they're supposed to be identical) and I personally find the DB's MIDI to sound better than the SC-55.

If you have a specific game in mind I might be able to make a recording using both devices for you to compare... but personally, I'd save your money, you can get the XR385 for about $30 and the SC-55 is usually double-triple that.

I guess this is a personal, subjective thing and people will have different opinions on this... but this is what I reckon 😀

Reply 18 of 139, by Mau1wurf1977

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

That's sacrilege 🤣

I got my DB as well, but nothing comes out from it. Guess I was unlucky...

My website with reviews, demos, drivers, tutorials and more...
My YouTube channel