swaaye wrote:

Additionally, the AudioPCI's software FM synthesis may be the worst out there. Just ask forumgoer Ace what he thinks. 😉

The AudioPCI doesn't even use FM Synthesis at all. What is uses to replace FM Synthesis is pure garbage. As Ensoniq did with the earlier Soundscape, which also lack FM Synthesis, the FM notes are remapped to the wavetable, resulting in completely messed-up audio. I've tried the Ensoniq AudioPCI's "simulated FM Synthesis" in Doom and Star Wars X-Wing and the result was horrible. Doom sounded really weird and X-Wing was a complete mess. I didn't record Doom's sound, but here are two clips of X-Wing using my SoundBlaster Vibra128 model CT4810(this is based off the AudioPCI):

Floppy disk edition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXObHZEY8u4
Collector's CD-ROM edition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua4F7ebOSWI

That is nasty.

swaaye wrote:

I don't see a reason to use a AudioPCI over a Live!. They use the same DOS driver, except the Live version has SB16 support. I think FM might be better too (Ace investigated this).

The SoundBlaster Live! line of sound cards does have (software-emulated) FM Synthesis, but for the most part, it will make your ears bleed. I've only tried X-Wing on this sound card and got mixed results. The overall emulation of the Yamaha YMF262 and YM3812 is wrong, but when emulating OPL3, the SoundBlaster Live! manages to still sound quite decent despite sounding really wrong. When emulating OPL2, on the other hand, the SoundBlaster Live! is at its absolute worst. I'll let the floppy disk edition of Star Wars X-Wing speak for the absolutely horrid OPL2 of the SoundBlaster Live!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYsQbD33vtg

Then compare that to the Collector's CD-ROM edition's OPL3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5z8FjUlwd8

Sounds much better in OPL3, right?

FYI, the AudioPCI-based SoundBlasters DO support the SoundBlaster 16, but only when using Creative's drivers. If you use Ensoniq's drivers(for the AudioPCIs based off the ES137x chipset), you lose SoundBlaster 16 support while gaining backwards compatibility with the Ensoniq Soundscape both for MIDI and digital sound.

Are there DOS drivers for a Sound Blaster Audigy and X-fi?

sliderider wrote:

Are there DOS drivers for a Sound Blaster Audigy and X-fi?

Yes there are. I used to use the original audigy 1 with dos quite successfully.

Ace wrote:

The AudioPCI doesn't even use FM Synthesis at all. What is uses to replace FM Synthesis is pure garbage. As Ensoniq did with the earlier Soundscape, which also lack FM Synthesis, the FM notes are remapped to the wavetable, resulting in completely messed-up audio.

Oh I know. We chatted about this stuff months ago somewhere in the forum here. 😉 And I recorded the goofy Soundscape "FM" for you.

elfuego wrote:

sliderider wrote:

Are there DOS drivers for a Sound Blaster Audigy and X-fi?

Yes there are. I used to use the original audigy 1 with dos quite successfully.

It's too bad that I've run into some problems with Audigy's EAX support with old Live! era games. Audigy is definitely the better card otherwise. You can still get them up and running on Win7 x64!

swaaye wrote:

Oh I know. We chatted about this stuff months ago somewhere in the forum here. 😉 And I recorded the goofy Soundscape "FM" for you.

I remember that very well. Then I got to hear it first-hand on my Soundscape. Horrible, it's even worse than improperly software-emulated or cloned YMF262s.

Doom does seem considerably worse on the AudioPCI using its "simulated FM Synthesis." At times, though, it sounds like on the Soundscape Elite, but for the most part, Ensoniq's "simulated FM Synthesis" is unbearable.

swaaye wrote:

except the Live version has SB16 support.

So does the AudioPCI when using the Creative drivers 😉

Just to clarify:

Ensoniq Driver: Allows you to select Ensoniq, General Midi, Sound Blaster or Sound Blaster Pro in the game setup.

Creative Driver: Allows you to seneral Midi and Sound Blaster 16 in game setup.

Regarding FM, stick to an old ISA card and a 486 for such games.

Certain cards, make sense in certain scenarios. And IMO, these PCI cards are perfect for 1.4 GHz without ISA slots and later DOS games, especially SVGA.

I tried heaps of older games, and many of them have issues with PCI sound cards. Doesn't matter what brand / model. Really old games simply don't mix well with these cards.

Live! and Audigy are great alternatives of course. In Europe I see a lot of live! cards go for 1 Euro on eBay.

So yea, might be the better grab, especially considering better Windows support.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

I tried heaps of older games, and many of them have issues with PCI sound cards. Doesn't matter what brand / model. Really old games simply don't mix well with these cards.

This however is the point of this thread. The AWE64 PCI and other SBLink cards do not use the nasty resource emulation that the AudioPCI/Live/Vortex/etc use to get DOS support. Technically a SBLink card should work as well as an ISA SB16 or SBPro (whichever the card supports). SBLink is some sort of direct ISA link.

That is the only reason that the AWE64 PCI is interesting to me along with the other SBLink cards that Gerwin mentioned.

AND the AWE64 PCI, Yamaha card and ESS Solo should have OPL3-like FM.

Okido!

Well......

If someone could test the CD version (or Steam version) of Space Quest 4 and let us know if you get looping / stuck speech.

Fate of Atlantis (CD version) is another game that fails on PCI cards.

PS: Wasn't there an issue with these cards with slower games. Basically games ran to fast, so you had to slow down the PC. But then the cards wouldn't work because they use software to generate Music, and because the machine was slow now, that didn't work.

That's why I'm questioning using a PCI card for old games. There are lot's of obstacles...

With that SBLink these cards shouldn't behave like the usual PCI card in DOS. It's that quirky DOS resource emulation of the other ones that's the problem with games. It basically emulates ISA hardware using some software tricks and it doesn't work anywhere near perfectly.

I don't know if I'm motivated enough to get one of these cards myself though 🤣

But it seems to me that the SBLink could put these cards into another class for PCI sound card DOS compatibility because we're talking a hardware ISA link here. This was the solution to DOS compatibility before the fancy-and-cheaper pure software solutions got figured out.

Surely someone on VOGONS has one of these cards / mainboards and could test this 🤣

I do have a pair of Yamaha YMF-724 with SB-Link. Let me know what test you want to be done (preferably with Fate of Atlantis, I do not own Space Quest 4).

Fate of Atlantis is a good candiate. So are early VGA Sierra games that use digital speech. E.g. SQ1 VGA version.

GODS is another good game to test.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Fate of Atlantis is a good candiate. So are early VGA Sierra games that use digital speech. E.g. SQ1 VGA version.

GODS is another good game to test.

So what's wrong with Fate of Atlantis? And Gods?

I reckon SQ1 VGA and Fate of Atlantis would be better on a 486 with an MT-32 anyway! 😉

sprcorreia wrote:

[So what's wrong with Fate of Atlantis? And Gods?

All these games gave me issues on PCI sound cards (AudioPCI and Vortex2).

SQ4 is the best test though...

I can only assume that they used really old / basic sound drivers that fail with modern gear.

Newer games work flawless (Doom, Duke3D, Descent..)

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

All these games gave me issues on PCI sound cards (AudioPCI and Vortex2). […]
Show full quote

sprcorreia wrote:

[So what's wrong with Fate of Atlantis? And Gods?

All these games gave me issues on PCI sound cards (AudioPCI and Vortex2).

SQ4 is the best test though...

I can only assume that they used really old / basic sound drivers that fail with modern gear.

Newer games work flawless (Doom, Duke3D, Descent..)

The only problem i find in Fate is low volume with my Vortex 2.

If i use GM i have to run the game twice, because i think it initializes MT-32 first and only in second run it runs GM properly. But using SB it works just fine, except for the low volume.

sprcorreia wrote:

The only problem i find in Fate is low volume with my Vortex 2.

I was thinking of using Fate of Atlantis, YMF-724 and Vortex 2 for the comparison of PCI sound cards with and without SB-Link, but if Vortex 2 does not always fail on Fate of Atlantis... Well, I guess I'll have to get SQ4 "somehow". $10 for Space Quest Collection in Steam is a real bargain, but still a bit too much just for this test.

Interesting. For me the machine locks up when you hear the first digital speech effect (when Indiana Jones swings through the glass)...

That might be because the emulation those PCI cards use works to varying degrees depending on the motherboard/chipset.

sprcorreia wrote:

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Fate of Atlantis is a good candiate. So are early VGA Sierra games that use digital speech. E.g. SQ1 VGA version.

GODS is another good game to test.

So what's wrong with Fate of Atlantis? And Gods?

GODS doesnt work with MT32 emulation and seems to require a real IRQ for Roland compatibility. Very nice music though 😀