[Zeus] wrote:

I explained what is 3dfx-MiniGL, why HL is present on several Glide games list and why I'm not surprised with that fact. That's all. 😒

But it's misinformation that it's listed as a Glide game on those lists. People assume MiniGL and a 3dfx label on the box somewhere = confirmed direct Glide support.

which is just wrong

[Zeus] wrote:

leileilol wrote:

all redirect to Glide

The thing is they don't. OpenGL(original)/DDraw/D3D stuff isn't redirected to Glide (check DLLs' dependencies).
The only driver that wraps a subset of OpenGL functions to Glide is 3dfx-MiniGL which later evolved into 3dfx-ICD.

Can someone else say their opinion on that?

3dfx Direct3D driver does not redirect to Glide.
But calling games that use MiniGL Glide is just plain wrong IMHO. One could program an ordinary OpenGL app without a single Glide line and if using the OGL subset supported by the MiniGL it'll work. There's already enough confusion when games that had 3dfx logo (similar to nowadays nVidia's "it's how it's meant to be played" - which doesn't even remotely translate to it won't work on ATi/AMD) and were just plain D3D, be called Glide.

I repeat. If you can patch/config the retail game for glide*.dll or glide.ovl dependency - this IS the glideAPI game. Plus - there are statically linked DOS glide games.
The only border is - the patch must be official.
Examples:
Half-Life - 3dfx minigl is included to the retail version. Glide.
Quake - 3dfx minigl is included to the official GLQuake patch. Glide.
Anachronox - 3dfx .bat is included with the retail version, but the lib (WickedGL) isn't. WickedGL is included in semi-official build44. Questionable, but - included in my list as Glide game.
Baseball edition 2000 - no 3dfx minigl in the retail version, but the minigl from the demo is working with the full game. Not included as the glide game - "fan made patch".
Esoteria - retail version is d3d-only. Can be played as glide with the .exe from the 3dfx demo. Again - not included.
Quake III: Arena - need 3dfxvgl.dll, which isn't included with the game or in any official patch. And not included in the 3dfx drivers since Voodoo Banshee. 50/50, but I haven't included this game in my list.
CART Precision Racing - there is leaked official glide driver for this game. Dunno, 50/50, currently included.

By the way, if any glide wrapper will not run the 3dfx miniGL games - the author will be damned and burned as the heretic. 😀

IF THE GAME IS FEEDING TO AN ABSTRACTION LAYER, THEN IT IS NOT A GLIDE GAME.
I mean, do you see me calling Quake a "SGL" game because there's a PowerVR MiniGL for that too? Or does it not count since GLQuake only ships with a 3dfx MiniGL by default, intended for the convenience of the masses?

3dfxvgl.dll should be in that GLSetup program which Q3A ships with on the disc.

leileilol wrote:

3dfxvgl.dll should be in that GLSetup program which Q3A ships with on the disc.

Tnx, I will check this. And if so - I will add Quake III: Arena to the list.

For the first question: 3dfx minigl is the official driver from 3dfx.
So - if the PowerVR developers have made something like this, but for SGL - don't see any reason for exclude Quake from "SGL API games".

I do because it's not natively using the API from the game. The game sends out commands directly to Opengl32.dll. The wrapper in the directory beats it into something else for the card. CPU cycles have been eaten to translate vectors, polygons, etc. from one API into another API. The game is not SGL or Glide. It's that simple.

Also IIRC 3dfxvgl.dll is intended only for Voodoo1/2. Banshee and up use 3dfxogl.dll and don't need the 3dfxvgl.dll ICD.

There will always be confusion about 3dfx-MiniGL because both sides forgot to use the word "direct" or "native" when describing it.

Simply, don't use these phrases:
"MiniGL = Glide" <- not true because Glide isn't natively implemented
"MiniGL != Glide" <- also not true because it allows you to play in Glide

and use these instead:
"MiniGL = not native Glide" <- true
"MiniGL != direct Glide" <- true

Phrases like "MiniGL != Glide" are confusing because they don't tell what poster had in mind. Did he mean that game is rendered in OpenGL? Maybe he meant that game doesn't allow you to play in Glide or maybe he meant that game doesn't use Glide natively?

"MiniGL != direct Glide" dispels any doubts.

Gamecollector wrote:

Half-Life - 3dfx minigl is included to the retail version. Glide.

Leileilol is right when saying MiniGL games shouldn't be listed on "direct Glide only" games lists, but if you want to build a complete Glide games list (also with non-native ones), what the problem? Add them and mark them as "MiniGL Glide", so they won't be confused with "native Glide" games.

[Zeus] wrote:

but if you want to build a complete Glide games list (also with non-native ones), what the problem? Add them and mark them as "MiniGL Glide", so they won't be confused with "native Glide" games.

This. But unfortunately it's what about 99% of people who make these kind of lists fail to do (even you if you're responsible for this list, which seems to be among the better ones otherwise), which creates a lot of confusion as seen in this topic.

Just because a game may use the 3dfx miniGL driver, it does not necessarily mean that there is no advantage to using a Voodoo card with the game. The performance of the miniGL driver may be superior to contemporary cards using slow but full OpenGL ICDs.

I have already described the principles for my glide list.

Unfortunately GLsetup is searching the hardware through vendor_id/device_id, so - it will not work w/o the real hardware. But looks like this glsetup is just copying 1 minigl dll to the system...
So - if I copy 3dfxvgl.dll from the last reference Voodoo2 drivers - the result will be the same...

Yeah, the game is working through OpenGL-Glide combo. NGlide is detected as Voodoo3/32 Mb:

Great Hierophant wrote:

Just because a game may use the 3dfx miniGL driver, it does not necessarily mean that there is no advantage to using a Voodoo card with the game. The performance of the miniGL driver may be superior to contemporary cards using slow but full OpenGL ICDs.

In some cases they also have negative effects though. In Quake II the maximal resolution is limited to 800x600 and the image looks somewhat washed out when using the 3dfx MiniGL, for example. In Half-Life on the other hand neither of those things apply.

Voodoo 3 with 32 MB? Riiight... 😉

what a talk over here, and go so upset.
glide is over, 3dfx is dead, and there is nothing wrong with opengl.
microshaft won the thing with their laggy shitty direct nonsense.
if you can take opengl or minigl or native glide take whatever is most flexible graphics and performance wise.
as even the later official glide versions got more bugs than previous, nothing is perfect.

RogueTrip2012 wrote:

I found google document spreadsheet. I'm gonna start working on atleast the games I own/play. Dunno how I would go about sharing it yet or putting it public to others can add to it. xD

I actually had a similar idea for a vogonswiki article. If you want you can make one. Btw, another good way to determine the DX version of games is Xfire (instant messaging program), it usually shows the version in the list of games installed.