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Yes, looking for advice another retro rig for DOS/W98SE gaming

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First post, by Scylla

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Having been, but no longer though, a collector of PC hardware I've decided to put it to good work and build a retro rig for playing DOS games the way I couldn't enjoy back in the day 😜

I have a multitude of hardware laying around, although with my luck most of it will be defective by now, even if I have taken great care on storing it. Anyway, I'm pondering over the configuration I want to achieve the best results. First thing, is it possible to build a combined DOS/Windows 98 SE gaming rig for those games who don't work in Windows XP? Would you please give me an example of great games that do not work correctly on XP but do on 98 SE?

Then, to the hardware. For the MB & CPU I'm between:
Asus P5A + AMD K6-III+ 400 MHz. = I can fit the P5A with any Pentium Socket 7 CPU, but the AMD one is quite possibly one of the best around. Many older DOS games will require the CPU to be slowed down, but will it perform adequately on the more demanding Windows 98 SE ones? I remember the Athlon K7 and the Pentium III to be the killer CPU on Windows 98 SE. Does the AMD K6 implementation of i686 instructions interfere with any pure DOS compatibility?

I also have an nForce3 board, in perfect working order, which I may use because of its native Windows 98 SE support but I deem it too new for my goal, and also I don't know if the CPU implementation will degrade compatibility in any way.

Asus A7N8E + Sempron 3000+ = Quite possibly one of the best motherboards on Socket 462, with native nForce support on Windows 98 SE. Way too fast for many DOS games, will require to be slowed down also, but there's no doubt it will crunch any Windows 98 SE supported game. I don't know if this will be too much for old gaming, though. Another downside is that, with no ISA slots, my audio choices are reduced to a Sound Blaster Live! or later sound card.

Graphics card. I have every 3dfx model ever made, except for the Voodoo Rush, and would love to revisit many games on their Glide API glory. My options, as I see them, although I beg you to suggest anything you deem fit:
Voodoo Banshee = It has the obvious advantage of being able to do decent 2D + 3D and supporting the Glide API. It's not the fastest graphics card on Windows 98SE by far, and I don't know if I'm going to run on any performance issues on the more advanced 3D games.
Any GeForce 256/2/3/4 + Voodoo2 = I can combine any GeForce card, being the most powerful GPUs available then, with one or even two Voodoo 2. I have even the SLI cables for them, although some years ago I tried to make an SLI configuration without success. The GeForce4 Ti 4600 is undoubtedly the most advanced GPU which is sensible to configure on Windows 98 SE. I even may go up all the way to the 6800/7800GS AGP cards, but they look excessive for the job.

Sound card.
Roland MTU-32 external MIDI module = I'm about to lay my hands on this and I'd like to experience the original MIDI sound of many DOS games, which I understand are almost every DOS game released before 1992. If I'm correct, you can hook this synthesizer on any MIDI port present in a sound card.
Sound Blaster AWE64 Gold = Back in the day it used to be the cream of the crop of the sound cards. I know there're some issues with older games, but I'd count on the Roland MTU-32 for that.
Sound Blaster Live! = I know this was the de facto sound card for Windows 98 SE. I don't know what are the advantages of using a Live! over an AWE64 apart from the early EAX support.
Sound Blaster Audigy = Is the original Audigy the best home sound card for Windows 98 SE? Is it worth it?

Storage. This is a touchy subject: I have got some IDE hard drives, and the A7N8E should be able to emulate IDE HDDs just fine. But I'd like to buy one of those CF->IDE adapters and a large CF for speed and comfort. Has somebody any recommendations on this?
RAM. I know I'm "limited" to 512 MB in order to run Windows 98 SE without any bugs, any other advice on this too?

Well, thank you for your read. I'm quite excited of being able to experience some old school gaming and I'm eager to know your thoughts on my ramblings.

Reply 1 of 37, by gerwin

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Beware: I expect the nForce chipset to not only have no ISA like you said, but also to fail when trying to use Dos/Win9X Soundblaster emulation drivers.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 2 of 37, by Scylla

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gerwin wrote:

Beware: I expect the nForce chipset to not only have no ISA like you said, but also to fail when trying to use Dos/Win9X Soundblaster emulation drivers.

I also look at it as "too new". I'd like to have a socket 370 alternative, but every single socket 370 motherboard I'd laid my hands on has died. I even have several Tualatin CPUs just laying around because there's no board which can use them, save for a slot 1 -> 370 adapter which only supports Celeron non-Tualatin CPUs.

Reply 3 of 37, by subhuman@xgtx

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gerwin wrote:

Beware: I expect the nForce chipset to not only have no ISA like you said, but also to fail when trying to use Dos/Win9X Soundblaster emulation drivers.

my Abit AN7 also has conflicts between IDE and the LAN controller under 98se, and I cannot manually change IRQs 😅

Reply 5 of 37, by Scylla

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Wow, that's a handful of information. I think I will stick to the K6-III+ option, although I'm still in doubt regarding wether the AWE64 has any benefit on DOS.

Does any of you think that the scenario where a K6-III+ would run short on Windows 98 SE? Is there any list of games that run on Windows 98SE but not in Windows XP?

Reply 6 of 37, by Scylla

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Wow, that's a handful of information. I think I will stick to the K6-III+ option, although I'm still in doubt regarding wether the AWE64 has any benefit on DOS.

Does any of you think that the scenario where a K6-III+ would run short on Windows 98 SE? Is there any list of games that run on Windows 98SE but not in Windows XP?

Reply 7 of 37, by d1stortion

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UT and the like want something faster, but most games will run fine. As for the AWE64, just believe it, ISA sound cards are the way to go for DOS and PCI ones won't give you anything for Win9x games if you don't need fancy 3D sound!

Reply 8 of 37, by Scylla

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I'd really like to know of games that work with 98SE but won't with Windows XP. I'm unable to find any compatibility list on the net or even information about great or famous games who are more enjoyable on Windows 9x. Although I think it's worth it just for the Glide API support.

Reply 11 of 37, by Scylla

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d1stortion wrote:

What a weird list. It's called PC games and then it lists console games. Isn't it pretty clear that these will need an emulator in any case to play on a PC... duh.

That bit also befuddled me at first, but without having read the thread, I think the original author included them for completeness.

I've been browsing my old hardware and junk box. I'm very disapponted that I havent' been able to find any Super Socket 7 board, and the price they go on eBay is simply ludicrous. There's no way I'm paying 80€ for a 10+ year old motherboard which can go out of service on any moment.

However, I've found a QDI Advance 10T motherboard. If memory doesn't fool me, it was retried due to an incomplete BIOS update. I may even extract the chip and flash the BIOS file, however, for that I shpuld be able to find any BIOS file at all for that mobo. Motherboards are always the ruin of old systems.

What I do have is a healthy array of graphics card, with almost every chipset made by 3Dfx (there's a bandwagon of Voodoo 2 8MB and 12 MB), Matrox, PowerVR (yes, a Kyro II) , nVidia (save for the NV1) and ATI.
Is a Voodoo 4 4550 relevant for Win9x gaming or I'm covered with a Banshee? Has a Voodoo 4 any compatibility problems with Glide or VESA under DOS?

Reply 12 of 37, by d1stortion

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SS7 prices are totally insane indeed. My best guess is that people pay those prices because you can cover many different CPU speeds with this platform.

You should be good to go with your V4, as it is far superior to Banshee.

Reply 13 of 37, by Scylla

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d1stortion wrote:

SS7 prices are totally insane indeed. My best guess is that people pay those prices because you can cover many different CPU speeds with this platform.

You should be good to go with your V4, as it is far superior to Banshee.

There are, however, reports of odd graphics problems with some DOS games using a Voodoo 4; which I don't know if are exclusive to the Voodoo 4 or are common with all 3dfx 2D cores.

eBay has indeed seen better times. I remember that, some years ago, it was still possible to buy something interesting without it costing an arm and a leg or simply getting scammed. My, I would usually launch a search for 3dfx Rampage prototype cards or Voodoo 6000 and one or two would surface in a year.

The more I think about bulding a retro PC, the more disillusioned I become. I'm tempted to calling it quits and getting rid of the ISA bus for a newer 370 or Socket A motherboard, but then I'd have to renounce to the very purpose that made me decide to build such a system: to enjoy old games the way they were meant to be, sound included.

Reply 14 of 37, by d1stortion

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You seem to be misunderstanding something. Most Slot 1/Socket 370 boards have ISA slots.

The DOS problems you are talking about are likely to be the same with all 3dfx cards, although for me personally most of the games I tried running worked so far.

Reply 15 of 37, by Scylla

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d1stortion wrote:

You seem to be misunderstanding something. Most Slot 1/Socket 370 boards have ISA slots.

The DOS problems you are talking about are likely to be the same with all 3dfx cards, although for me personally most of the games I tried running worked so far.

As it happens, this QDI Advance 10T for socket 370 hasn't got any ISA slots 😜

That's the luck I'm having with this retro build. I've found quite many wonderful things in my old hardware junk: an Audigy 2 I didn't know I had, almost all relevant Matrox video cards... even my old Voodoo 5 5500 has finally resurfaced. But I'm out of luck with finding any Super Socket 7 motherboard working or an slot 1/370 with ISA slots.

Look also at this excellent DOS compatibility chart:
http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/#CRT

I'm pondering wether it would be worth it to strip an old Compaq CPU of its slot 1 motherboard (440BX chipset, I believe) and try stuffing a Pentium III CPU with an slot 1 card.

Reply 16 of 37, by bestemor

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Here's a working socket7 for you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251242670269
Granted, not an intel chipset, but still.

With a little luck you can probably get it for £20 or less, included 'Signed-for' delivery/postage that is...
IF...if the seller is willing to ship to Spain, that is. Ask him ? 😁
You'd be surprised how often they say yes in the UK.
German sellers on the other hand, not so 'daring'... L OL

http://www.royalmail.com/packet-despatch-low/ … elivery/airmail

Reply 17 of 37, by Scylla

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bestemor wrote:
Here's a working socket7 for you: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251242670269 Granted, not an intel chipset, but still. […]
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Here's a working socket7 for you:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251242670269
Granted, not an intel chipset, but still.

With a little luck you can probably get it for £20 or less, included 'Signed-for' delivery/postage that is...
IF...if the seller is willing to ship to Spain, that is. Ask him ? 😁
You'd be surprised how often they say yes in the UK.
German sellers on the other hand, not so 'daring'... L OL

http://www.royalmail.com/packet-despatch-low/ … elivery/airmail

Hey thanks, Gigabyte GA-5AX is one of my favourite SS7 motherboards 😁

I've just won this Asus P2B-LS:
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/slot1/440 … s/p2bls-106.pdf

It's a rather high-end slot 1 board. Should the PWM allow it, I may even be able to fit a Tualatin processor in there using an adapter. I recall that there was some reason, apart from voltage requisites, that would prevent a Tualatin prcessor to be installed as well as if there's anything to favour installing Celeron Tualatin CPUs over Pentium III ones.

Reply 19 of 37, by Scylla

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d1stortion wrote:

The reason is that the 440BX chipset is specified for only 100 MHz FSB, while Tualatin PIIIs run at 133 MHz.

I know, but I could underclock the Tualatin CPU and still benefit for the large amount of cache.

However, that'll be a no-go, since this Asus P2B-LS can't go down 1.8V. A shame, though a PIII will still be more than adequate for DOS gaming.

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