tayyare wrote:

That's not that true, either... 😀 OWC still has them brand new for 9.29 USD each (well, at least if you live in US and not paying much for shipment, anyway: shipment 27.58 USD to Turkey for 4 sticks 😊 ).

Well... it's certainly cheaper to get a SIMMconn for $15 plus $7 postage to Germany, and any old 72pin SIMM that I probably already have laying around. I don't think I'm willing to spend $40-50 for something that I'm not even sure I'd use all that much! 😵

In a way, Creative's AWE64 releases, with all their associated "gimmickry," seem to hearken back to to the original Creative Music System, where the focus wasn't so much on mind-blowing features, but instead, on allowing and providing for honest-to-goodness music creation. To that end, the AWE32 and AWE64 cards have a ridiculous amount of potential, while still being completely compatible with DOS gaming.

While the software portion of the "64" is easily dismissible today, it was arguably a big deal when released, as software synthesizers were just then coming into prominence. Seer Systems' WaveSynth/WG was a decent approach at offering an affordable ($20) add-on wavetable option for even SB16 owners (sans WG), while additionally providing AWE32/64 owners with the fifteen physically-modelled, "Waveguide" instruments. The requirement of 10-15% of CPU cycles from a Pentium 90 doesn't strike me as being outlandish, especially given the ability to disable the software entirely, and its mostly non-gaming application besides.

Referring to the AWE64 Gold specifically, I would suggest that the most important differentiator between it and any AWE32 variant is that the digital output (S/PDIF) contains the combined output of both the EMU8000 (and subsequently, CQM) and 44.1kHz-rate PCM playback. Analog output stage, you say? Who cares?!

So, if the potential of a completely digital (AWE64 Gold), "hobbyist-musician-intended" soundcard neither appeals nor applies, then there's really no reason to move away from the AWE32.

leileilol wrote:

The real shitty part of the AWE64 is the RAM module proprietaryness if you value SF2 files, but then again the games that could use these aren't that worth it anyway (ff7 still sounds awful)

Creative published the complete specifications for anyone wanting to produce memory modules. This was hardly a "proprietary" solution.

Volume variations aside, the samples used in the FFVII SoundFont banks are the same as used in the PlayStation counterpart. I'm not sure what the specific complaint is, but I have to assume you dislike both equally?

leileilol wrote:

Also if you have a non-Pentium processor like a Cyrix6x86 or a K5, the "extra polyphony" software driver won't install anyhow

The WaveSynth/WG update package claims compatibility with the AMD K5, for what it's worth.

Cloudschatze wrote:

Volume variations aside, the samples used in the FFVII SoundFont banks are the same as used in the PlayStation counterpart.

Not all of them. They goofed up the guitar and saw synth so all the boss fights sound horrible for example and that's pretty important

leileilol wrote:

Cloudschatze wrote:

Volume variations aside, the samples used in the FFVII SoundFont banks are the same as used in the PlayStation counterpart.

Not all of them. They goofed up the guitar and saw synth so all the boss fights sound horrible for example and that's pretty important

I haven't looked at this in nearly a year, but assuming you're referring to the "CHU" sequence, the "saw synth" preset in question is the "Prophet" variation, which uses the same-titled instrument and sample. If you increase the EQ settings for just that sample and then play-back the sequence, it seems pretty clear that it's the same as in the PlayStation version, but yes, somewhere along the way, Squaresoft goofed.

Scott probably meant for the "prophet1" instrument to be used, but I want to say that a straight substitution caused problems with other sequences using that preset (the EQ changes absolutely did).

A proper fix might involve adding a new, dedicated preset for the prophet1 instrument, and then just modifying the relevant bank select in the CHU sequence.

I'm not familiar with the guitar issue. We can start a new thread about fixing FFVII PC playback problems, if you're game...? 😀

Cloudschatze wrote:

In a way, Creative's AWE64 releases, with all their associated "gimmickry," seem to hearken back to to the original Creative Music System, where the focus wasn't so much on mind-blowing features, but instead, on allowing and providing for honest-to-goodness music creation. To that end, the AWE32 and AWE64 cards have a ridiculous amount of potential, while still being completely compatible with DOS gaming.

While the software portion of the "64" is easily dismissible today, it was arguably a big deal when released, as software synthesizers were just then coming into prominence. Seer Systems' WaveSynth/WG was a decent approach at offering an affordable ($20) add-on wavetable option for even SB16 owners (sans WG), while additionally providing AWE32/64 owners with the fifteen physically-modelled, "Waveguide" instruments. The requirement of 10-15% of CPU cycles from a Pentium 90 doesn't strike me as being outlandish, especially given the ability to disable the software entirely, and its mostly non-gaming application besides.

Referring to the AWE64 Gold specifically, I would suggest that the most important differentiator between it and any AWE32 variant is that the digital output (S/PDIF) contains the combined output of both the EMU8000 (and subsequently, CQM) and 44.1kHz-rate PCM playback. Analog output stage, you say? Who cares?!

Music creation on an AWE? I don't know of anyone who used an AWE32 or 64 for professional music creation-- the potential of a basic ROMpler would only be appealing to hobbyists back then; today its ROMpler playback is utterly useless and doesn't provide anything unique in terms of a sonic palette since it's a sampler and not a synthesizer (CQM aside). Professionals during that time used proper ROMplers like the Roland JV-1080-- and there are countless titles that used it for music like Starcraft, Sim City 3000, MechWarrior II, etc.

The problem with the SPDIF outputs is that it bypasses the amplifier leading to a flatter sound; just when you thought CQM couldn't get any worse. If clean sound is a must for FM/DOS purposes, a CT-5330 would make more sense-- cleaner signal, better output and it has real OPL3.

So where does the AWE64 fit in the picture?
It sucks at OPL3, it still has ISA noise and any attempts for 'professional' sound design on the AWE cause a nosebleed before you even hit a brick wall. It's not good for the old, and it's not good for the new.

Was it innovative? Not in the sense of being useful or aurally exploratory. Do you know who made the softsynth engine that Creative licensed? Dave Smith while he was working at intel. And he said it was absolutely terrible which is why he's back at making real synthesizers again; which I might add the Prophet 12 has some of the most fantastic abilities for crafting new sounds like PWM triangles.

From a gamers perspective I believe the AWE64 Gold sounds bloody good 😊

http://www.philscomputerlab.com/games-played- … awe64-gold.html

It's also compatible with everything I tried. A good "just works" card so to speak.

The OPL3 is not a big deal for me as all the interesting games support Roland MT-32 or General MIDI anyway. I also like Chorus, Reverb and the 3D expansion but that's very subjective / personal.

I think sometimes it's easy to forget that many just want to play a game and be happy.

philscomputerlab wrote:

From a gamers perspective I believe the AWE64 Gold sounds bloody good :blush: […]
Show full quote

From a gamers perspective I believe the AWE64 Gold sounds bloody good 😊

http://www.philscomputerlab.com/games-played- … awe64-gold.html

It's also compatible with everything I tried. A good "just works" card so to speak.

The OPL3 is not a big deal for me as all the interesting games support Roland MT-32 or General MIDI anyway. I also like Chorus, Reverb and the 3D expansion but that's very subjective / personal.

I think sometimes it's easy to forget that many just want to play a game and be happy.

True... So true....
I still stand by my answer, that if games played are really old DOS-games and the only two options are AWE32 and AWE64.
Then the AWE32 is a better match. As to the AWE64 is better for late DOS-Games.
(partially because older hardware dies faster)

Besides that. Well. If the choice is between AWE32 and AWE64-Gold, then the gold wins.
If the choice is between AWE32 and AWE64 standard, then there is no real bonus in picking the AWE64 standard.

In other words, the GOLD only wins 100% if the choice is between AWE32 and AWE64-Gold.
This is meerly because the GOLD is... Well... The "golden" card of DOS gaming.... 😉

AWE64 Gold is kind of cool as Creative's last hurrah for ISA, the conclusion of the line started with the SB 1.0.

I'd take an AWE32 CT3980 (last full AWE32 with OPL3) over an AWE64 Gold any day though. They're much less common and command higher prices.

Scali wrote:

leileilol wrote:

Also if you have a non-Pentium processor like a Cyrix6x86 or a K5, the "extra polyphony" software driver won't install anyhow

Sounds like something in need of a quick patch 😀

I'd be lying if I said I have knowledge of old sound cards, but I've always wanted to build a gaming rig using a Cyrix MII, but the incompatibilities always put me off of this project.

brostenen wrote:

Besides that. Well. If the choice is between AWE32 and AWE64-Gold, then the gold wins.

Eh... that's not really the case for me. I have a CT3900 AWE32 and an AWE64 Gold and I like my CT3900 better for reasons that I can't explain. Nowadays the CT3900 lives in my pure DOS rig and the AWE64 Gold is the occasional DOS card in my P3 Win98SE rig.

But of course, that's all just personal opinion, and everyone is different! 😎

raymangold wrote:

Music creation on an AWE? I don't know of anyone who used an AWE32 or 64 for professional music creation-- the potential of a basic ROMpler would only be appealing to hobbyists back then; today its ROMpler playback is utterly useless and doesn't provide anything unique in terms of a sonic palette since it's a sampler and not a synthesizer (CQM aside). Professionals during that time used proper ROMplers like the Roland JV-1080-- and there are countless titles that used it for music like Starcraft, Sim City 3000, MechWarrior II, etc.

Nice diatribe. Guess I wasn't clear enough, what with words and terms like "potential," "hobbyist-musician," and "easily dismissible today." Comparing a $199 hardware/software package to a ~$1999 synthesizer seems like especially relevant discussion.

The problem with the SPDIF outputs is that it bypasses the amplifier leading to a flatter sound; just when you thought CQM couldn't get any worse. If clean sound is a must for FM/DOS purposes, a CT-5330 would make more sense-- cleaner signal, better output and it has real OPL3.

Yes, having a high-fidelity digital output signal, to which EQ and effects can externally be applied (or internally, as pertains to OPL3 or CQM through the EMU8000), as opposed to the significantly noisier, frequency-response-diminished, colored-analog-output-through-a-fifteen-cent-amplifier-chip, is certainly a problem.

And are you seriously saying that the CT5330 has better/cleaner analog output than something like the AWE64 Gold? If so, I'm very-much interested in seeing this backed-up with facts.

Cloudschatze wrote:

In a way, Creative's AWE64 releases, with all their associated "gimmickry," seem to hearken back to to the original Creative Music System, where the focus wasn't so much on mind-blowing features, but instead, on allowing and providing for honest-to-goodness music creation. To that end, the AWE32 and AWE64 cards have a ridiculous amount of potential, while still being completely compatible with DOS gaming.

I concluded; Creative Labs had bought EMU and for that reason stuck the latest EMU 8000 integrated synthesizer on their Cards.
"Potential for Music Creation": Sure, that is what EMU designed the chip for. Just needs to be paired with a good DAC.
"Completely compatible with DOS gaming": I strongly disagree. The EMU is not hardware compatible with anything previously supported by DOS games. It always relies on specific AWE software drivers to get music going, be it AWEUtil or build-in game drivers or windows drivers. The 1MB ROM samples facilitate DOS drivers, still the sbawe32.mdi driver for example is double the size of any other Miles music driver. (Edit: except for ultra.mid (GUS))

AWE64 vs AWE32 will IMO always be about CQM vs OPL3. Either one cares for true OPL3 in the system, or one cares for the other features. (Using an AWE64 combined with another soundcard with true OPL3 is an annoying setup, I tried it and ditched it)

gerwin wrote:

"Completely compatible with DOS gaming": I strongly disagree. The EMU is not hardware compatible with anything previously supported by DOS games. It always relies on specific AWE software drivers to get music going, be it AWEUtil or build-in game drivers or windows drivers.

I was referring to Sound Blaster compatibility holistically.

The other half of the AWE is still a compatible SB16, yes.

gerwin wrote:

The other half of the AWE is still a compatible SB16, yes.

Actually yes... Hmmm... If I choose between SB or Adlib for music in Doom and other games like that.
I do hear a difference, yet not that much. Adlib sounds just a tad better for some reason.
And then, there is the AWE-part for music, and General Midi, and emulation of MT32.... Hmmm....

Anyway.... Chose the right hardware for the software. And if a game only supports Adlib? Then!

What about AWE64 vs SB32? 😀

I ended up grabbing it guys. He was going to give the two cards to me for free but I felt bad about that so I gave him 5$ for them. He regularly visits a recycling center and does business with them but he gets the cards for nothing apparently because scrap value on them is practically nil.

Here is the Sound Blaster 16 (CQM I presume, there doesn't seem to be a Yamaha chip on the whole thing)

And here is the Sound Blaster AWE64, some cheaper variant by the looks of it. Oh well it's another ISA Sound Blaster for almost nothing so I'm not going to complain. 😜

Nice! Can't have too many ISA sound cards these days 🤣

That's exactly how I was thinking about it. 🤣

brostenen wrote:

And then, there is the AWE-part for music, and General Midi, and emulation of MT32.... Hmmm....

!

MT-32 emulation on the AWE cards is horrible. By comparison, a Gravis Ultrasound using MegaEm sounds way better.