Cloudschatze wrote:

Nice diatribe. Guess I wasn't clear enough, what with words and terms like "potential," "hobbyist-musician," and "easily dismissible today." Comparing a $199 hardware/software package to a ~$1999 synthesizer seems like especially relevant discussion.

Yes, having a high-fidelity digital output signal, to which EQ and effects can externally be applied (or internally, as pertains to OPL3 or CQM through the EMU8000), as opposed to the significantly noisier, frequency-response-diminished, colored-analog-output-through-a-fifteen-cent-amplifier-chip, is certainly a problem.

And are you seriously saying that the CT5330 has better/cleaner analog output than something like the AWE64 Gold? If so, I'm very-much interested in seeing this backed-up with facts.

Micro Channel has ALWAYS had better grounding than any variation of ISA. CT5330 Recordings here:
http://ibmfiles.com/OPL3/CT5330/wheelchair.ogg
http://ibmfiles.com/OPL3/CT5330/WHSCREAM.ogg

That particular track is recorded from Adlib Tracker II; I use it as a 'litmus' track because OPL3 clones (and CQM) react the most violently towards it. An AWE64 would make hideous ear bleeding squeals (coupled with ISA noise if you're using analog). I'll be showing this on the ultimate OPL3 comparison when I get around to it. Just need to buy a few more cards before I have virtually everything covered. whscream was recorded in mono due to a few issues when I first got the card, but wheelchair is in stereo.

I actually think the AW64... especially the gold version.... is one of the best cards ever made. I have one in every machine I could get away with.... all the way up to p3/1000s..... but when I switched to Athlon with no ISA slots I was forced into a PCI card.

raymangold wrote:

Micro Channel has ALWAYS had better grounding than any variation of ISA.

Most of the better/later soundcard designs feature some combination of a multi-layer PCB, and EMI/RFI shielding and filtration components. Any presumed RFI reduction benefit provided by the MCA bus could be important, or might be completely irrelevant, depending on the cards being compared.

Cloudschatze wrote:

raymangold wrote:

Micro Channel has ALWAYS had better grounding than any variation of ISA.

Most of the better/later soundcard designs feature some combination of a multi-layer PCB, and EMI/RFI shielding and filtration components. Any presumed RFI reduction benefit provided by the MCA bus could be important, or might be completely irrelevant, depending on the cards being compared.

MCA's grounding is certainly not irrelevant in the case of the soundblasters since it eliminates ground loop, and there isn't any bus noise feeding back into the output. As for 'presumed' noise reduction on the ISA cards, crank up the volume on your AWE64 and listen to the bus noise whereas the CT-5330/20 has none.

I have an AWE64 Gold installed, and while there is a fair amount of white noise with the master volume level maxed-out, there isn't any "bus noise" to speak of.

You might try and measure the SNR for your CT5330. Creative's website has it listed as only 48db, which, if accurate, is hardly impressive.

Have the same experience with AWE64 Gold - white noise but no other noise.
This is a million times better than my laptop which is pretty much unusable with decent speakers due to bus noise.

Cloudschatze wrote:

I have an AWE64 Gold installed, and while there is a fair amount of white noise with the master volume level maxed-out, there isn't any "bus noise" to speak of.

You might try and measure the SNR for your CT5330. Creative's website has it listed as only 48db, which, if accurate, is hardly impressive.

I've already sent recordings of the CT5330, I also played with the volume; sounds pretty clean to me. They probably listed 48db based on the raw pro 2 design as implemented on ISA-- as 48db is basically scraping the same as the AWE64 in terms of SNR-- and hey, they're both on ISA. The AWE64 gold is *not* anywhere near 100db.

If I find a cheap AWE64 I'll do a comparison between the two as part of the mega comparison.

raymangold wrote:

The AWE64 gold is *not* anywhere near 100db.

Creative advertised the AWE64 Gold as having a -90dB SNR for the analog output. Theoretical marketing fluff aside, Sound On Sound tested and obtained a -70dB reading for the analog output in one system, and -80dB in another, the latter of which put it behind the AudioTrix 3D-XG and Turtle Beach Tahiti. The digital output may very well reach or exceed -100dB, for all I know.

For someone who doesn't even own an AWE64 Gold, you seem to have some pretty strong opinions about it. 😀

Cloudschatze wrote:

raymangold wrote:

The AWE64 gold is *not* anywhere near 100db.

Creative advertised the AWE64 Gold as having a -90dB SNR for the analog output. Theoretical marketing fluff aside, Sound On Sound tested and obtained a -70dB reading for the analog output in one system, and -80dB in another, the latter of which put it behind the AudioTrix 3D-XG and Turtle Beach Tahiti. The digital output may very well reach or exceed -100dB, for all I know.

For someone who doesn't even own an AWE64 Gold, you seem to have some pretty strong opinions about it. 😀

I own an AWE32 (and according to creative it only has a 5db difference from an AWE64 Gold). If we were to take Creative's charts seriously-- which we're not, it's very similar to an AWE64. Of course I think the AWE64 may have a cleaner output (as there are more grounding planes) but the amplification section looks to be compromised. All of the AWE cards are a compromise, really.

Yes I am opinionated; but my largest disbelief here is that people actually like a still otherwise sub-par sound card with fake FM. There are so many better options for choosing a sound card on the ISA bus.

raymangold wrote:

Yes I am opinionated; but my largest disbelief here is that people actually like a still otherwise sub-par sound card with fake FM. There are so many better options for choosing a sound card on the ISA bus.

The AWE64 is an affordable way of adding decent 16-bit digital audio (the best you can get from Creative on ISA, really) and passable MIDI to a retro MS-DOS system. I don't think people like them because they think it is the best thing since baked bread, but because it is cheaper and more convenient than hunting down daughterboards or MIDI modules (which are on the expensive side) and a SB16-compatible card with passable SNR and no hanging note bug (early SB16's are noisy, and quite a number of decent clones, like the YMF71x, are SBPro-compatible, not SB16). I just found an AWE64 for under US$10 (shipping included) in a brazillian ebay-like site, and for that price it is a wonderful MS-DOS ISA card.

alexanrs wrote:

raymangold wrote:

early SB16's are noisy

Well.... Not all early SB16's are noisy. It has been discussed so many times here on vogons.
Some of the CT-26XX's and CT-27XX's are quiet in the speakers when not "in use", and some are having really low distortion when in use.
I think that it depends on the sub-number, the ones I wrote with two X's.

For instance. My CT-2910 is having no hanging note, and it has no line noise.
Others, having a CT-26XX, are experiencing no line noise, responsive bass, yet still hanging note.

raymangold wrote:

Yes I am opinionated; but my largest disbelief here is that people actually like a still otherwise sub-par sound card with fake FM. There are so many better options for choosing a sound card on the ISA bus.

Some people just don't care or the games they are interested support the MT-32 or GM. I like FM synthesis so i need the real thing. In fact, i want an original Pro Audio Spectrum not only to enjoy dual OPL2 but AdLib via OPL2 instead via OPL3.

alexanrs wrote:

The AWE64 is an affordable way of adding decent 16-bit digital audio (the best you can get from Creative on ISA, really) and passable MIDI to a retro MS-DOS system. I don't think people like them because they think it is the best thing since baked bread, but because it is cheaper and more convenient than hunting down daughterboards or MIDI modules (which are on the expensive side) and a SB16-compatible card with passable SNR and no hanging note bug (early SB16's are noisy, and quite a number of decent clones, like the YMF71x, are SBPro-compatible, not SB16). I just found an AWE64 for under US$10 (shipping included) in a brazillian ebay-like site, and for that price it is a wonderful MS-DOS ISA card.

If price is the main reason, YMF-71x cards are dirt cheap too. The only disadvantage against AWE64 is that it does not have an EMU8000 synth. But is this really a disadvantage? Yes, if you definitely want EMU8000...

Problem with YMF-71x cards is that these are cheap implementations of the wonderful YMF-71x chipset. A good implementation of it like the AudioTrix 3D-XG blows any SB16 or AWE64 out of the water in analog output with the Gold coming closer. But if i was in an absolute budget and could only have one card i would choose the YMF-71x over an AWE64 any day.

At the end of the day some might argue that Sound Blaster Pro compatibilty is not that important and all you need is SB 2.0. But then SB16 is even less important considering you can have a Pro Audio Spectrum 16 card, or better yet: a Gravis Ultrasound.

carlostex wrote:

If price is the main reason, YMF-71x cards are dirt cheap too. The only disadvantage against AWE64 is that it does not have an EMU8000 synth. But is this really a disadvantage? Yes, if you definitely want EMU8000...

Problem with YMF-71x cards is that these are cheap implementations of the wonderful YMF-71x chipset. A good implementation of it like the AudioTrix 3D-XG blows any SB16 or AWE64 out of the water in analog output with the Gold coming closer. But if i was in an absolute budget and could only have one card i would choose the YMF-71x over an AWE64 any day.

The problem wih the YMF-71x cards is that they have no General Midi. You'll need a daughterboard or use it in Windows only (early version of Soft Synth), but if you're gonna use Windows exclusively you're probably better off with somehing like a YMF-72x (better Soft Synth, AFAIK) or a Live! anyway. I'm happy with my YMF-71x, but I have a DB50XG, and those are hard to find, and not necessarily affordable.

brostenen wrote:

For instance. My CT-2910 is having no hanging note, and it has no line noise.
Others, having a CT-26XX, are experiencing no line noise, responsive bass, yet still hanging note.

Sorry, I see no reason why the CT2910 shouldn't be affected by the hanging note bug. It has one of the buggy DSP revisions and it doesn't come with the CT1747 bus interface.
When I tested a CT2910 (almost nine years ago 🤣), it had the bug.

What equipment do you use to measure the SNR ratio?
(Scope?)

To what extent is the origin of the noise the card itself (independent of the system) and what is coming from the systems PSU, bus etc. ?

What is the variation for SB16 cards of the same CTxxxx number?

alexanrs wrote:

The problem wih the YMF-71x cards is that they have no General Midi. You'll need a daughterboard or use it in Windows only (early version of Soft Synth), but if you're gonna use Windows exclusively you're probably better off with somehing like a YMF-72x (better Soft Synth, AFAIK) or a Live! anyway. I'm happy with my YMF-71x, but I have a DB50XG, and those are hard to find, and not necessarily affordable.

I have a YMF-71x card with General MIDI. Said that my post was focused exclusively on DOS.

carlostex wrote:

I have a YMF-71x card with General MIDI.

Oh, now that changes things a little. A YMF-71x card with General MIDI is quite a beast, and unless you really need SB16 compatibility (and the software in question doesn't support WSS), beats the AWE64 in DOS.

My YMF719 card doesn't have MIDI (as did every card I found when I bought mine), but I was aiming at using a daughterboard from the beggining and AWE's GM emulation doesn't sound that great, so I didn't really consider the AWE64. Since mine seems to be a cheaper card, though, I ended up disabling the amps. When there is no sound playing I still get a VERY faint noise that is almost impossible to hear. I probably wouldn't be hearing it on my old Phillips wireless phones (IR), as the noise it produced (unless the phones and the transmitter were at a perfect position) would overpower it.

alexanrs wrote:

Oh, now that changes things a little. A YMF-71x card with General MIDI is quite a beast, and unless you really need SB16 compatibility (and the software in question doesn't support WSS), beats the AWE64 in DOS.

My YMF719 card doesn't have MIDI (as did every card I found when I bought mine), but I was aiming at using a daughterboard from the beggining and AWE's GM emulation doesn't sound that great, so I didn't really consider the AWE64. Since mine seems to be a cheaper card, though, I ended up disabling the amps. When there is no sound playing I still get a VERY faint noise that is almost impossible to hear. I probably wouldn't be hearing it on my old Phillips wireless phones (IR), as the noise it produced (unless the phones and the transmitter were at a perfect position) would overpower it.

The card i own includes a Yamaha 704C chipset which contains a GM synth with 1MB ROM. It's far from imressive and certainly not a beast, but for the price its better than a lot of GM emulation i've heard. With a good GM daughterboard like the DB50 or DB60XG, it's NEC licensed clone XR385 and the Sound Canvas capable boards and provided one uses a cable due to misplace WB header the YMF csn be quite a cheap solution. Honestly i don't even care much about daughterboards, because i prefer external synths. But i wouldn't mind finding a cheap Crystal or Dream SAM based DB to go along on a card that does not use the 330H for MPU-401. This just to get some variety of sounds. But i'm not even desperate for it i have other priorities.

Anyway we're getting off topic.

raymangold wrote:

Yes I am opinionated; but my largest disbelief here is that people actually like a still otherwise sub-par sound card with fake FM.

Would you please read the CQM patents already?

I'd like to think that the majority of people here understand that neither Creative's FM implementation, nor anyone else's, is exactly the same as Yamaha's (similar to the fact that not every General MIDI implementation is a Sound Canvas), and aren't so hung-up about it as to dismiss an entire soundcard on that basis. I happen to appreciate actual OPL output quite a bit, as I'm sure many do, but have systems with OPL-bearing cards for that express purpose. For me, if the AWE64 Gold lacked FM entirely, it would do nothing to diminish or detract from its other virtues.

There are so many better options for choosing a sound card on the ISA bus.

Of course there are, but this thread wasn't meant to be some sort of comparison of everything versus the AWE64 cards. The original question was whether there is anything special about the AWE64, and whether it would be worth picking up. Several objective and subjective points were made to this end, from actual owners and users.

One thing that surprised me of the Soundblaster 16 and AWE64 ISA is how much powerful is the audio output from the 3.5 jack. 😲