Lack of research and a lack of knowledge? My, my, I am impressed.

I was going to explain what was wrong with your statement but if you really don't know, meh, ain't my problem.

no, be my guest, go right ahead. Illuminate us.

If Ferrari is good then people will say: Ferrari is good! HighTerason, I have an idea:
Open new "3dfx is crap'n'90's bullshit" thread. Giva questionnaire to all about opinion. I think this will rock!
PS: Personal opinion is worthless to world, let's give it loud noise

Godlike!

Geez this thread has gotten out of control. There's no need for arguing about crap. I'm guessing that most people here at Vogons are aged 30+ given that we're into retro gaming. We're not children so let's not act like kids.

Back on topic. I normally choose to use a GeForce 4 (Mainly the TI4600) in most of my builds as the GeForce 4 series has great D3D/Open GL compatibility. Haven't found any Dos games that have given me any trouble either. Yes it's way overpowered for anything made in the 90's but at least you know you can set any game from that era at max settings. Provided you have the right CPU to back it up of course. I normally use a 1ghz or 1.4ghz P3.

For a slower CPU like the P2 450mhz, I prefer to use a Voodoo 3500. In a recent build I just completed using a P2 450Mhz CPU and a 440BX motherboard, I changed graphics card combinations several times to test what works best. I started with a S3 Trio64v+ combined with a Voodoo 1. Great for Dos gaming but I couldn't take advantage of later Win9x 3D games. Next up was a Savage 4 Xtreme combined with the Voodoo 1. This worked much better but the Savage 4 was glitchy in a couple of games such as Rainbow 6 and Dungeon Keeper. After that I threw in my TNT2 Ultra combined with the Voodoo 1. This was even better as all my Win9x games could run on high settings using D3D and Open GL. No issues really but certain games are better played in Glide such as Kings Quest Mask of Eternity. Lastly I settled on the OEM Voodoo 3500 combined with the Voodoo 1. So far this has been the best combination as like the TNT2, I've had no issues, been able to run all games up to 1999 on high settings and have now got Glide support for those games that run better in Glide. For games made 2000 onwards, you'd really want a faster CPU but if 450mhz is what you have then you can't go wrong with the Voodoo 3500.

For your reference, Win9x games installed and tested are as follows:

Need for Speed 2/3/4
Dungeon Keeper 1/2
Warcraft 2
Starcraft
Jedi Knight (Dark Forces 2)
Rogue Squadron
Episode 1 Racer
Hexen 2
Heretic 2
Blood 2
Kings Quest Mask of Eternity
Diablo
Rainbow 6
Sin
Turok 1/2
Hellbender
Fury 3
Monster Truck Madness 2
Swat 2/3 - Note that 3 has to be run on Medium settings.
Unreal 1
Unreal Tournament
Quake 1/2/3
Grand Theft Auto 2

I may be missing a couple but the above is what I've fully tested on high settings. Minus Swat 3 of course which you'll require a slightly faster CPU/GPU combination to take advantage of the high settings, regardless of what the "recommended system specs" for this game would have you believe.

EDIT: I should also mention that I'm using the latest AmigaMerlin Voodoo drivers as these seem to run better than the latest reference drivers I also tried.

Wow... this very quickly devolved because of one person either does not remember the times correctly, wasnt there, or was so far in the opposition camp that they do not want to admit that it was 3dFX with their line of cards that started the 3d acceleration in games movement.

Voodoo 1 + 2 dominated the 3d accelerator market with around 85% market share (varied from region to region), the reason they were released as a pci card with no 2d capability (except the voodoo rush, which was a bad card) is because the company reasoned with good sense that a lot of people would have spent a lot of money on their high end 2d card and would be unlikely to want to replace it.
The Voodoo Banshee was a slightly cut down Voodoo 2 (1 TMU instead of 2) but it ran at 100mhz instead of 90mhz so it was still performing around 90% of the performance, this card also came in a lot of OEM machines.
The Voodoo 3 came out in 98 and we very popular with OEM's as well and was still a fast card (the higher end models were faster than the voodoo 2 sli setup and had more texture memory).

Nvidia had the second largest market share and did not have a comparable chip to compete with 3dfx until they released the TNT2, which started to edge out 3dfx with higher image quality (32 bit textures) and comparable performance to the voodoo 2.
It was only with the release of the Geforce 1 and the bad decision by 3dfx to start making their own cards instead of just selling the chips to board makers that things went downhill for 3dfx.

Now Back on topic, for a computer of that era I would suggest a TNT2 Ultra or Geforce 1 paired with a Voodoo 2 SLI setup as this should cover you for pretty much anything you are likely to run on a 450MHz machine.

How I like when things back to normal

Thanks jmannik for choosing V2 SLI too. I think it will be capable of runing even Clive Barker's Undying from 2001 at reasonable settings. But remember how fine this game works on my first Radeon DDR 32Mb. What a quality!

Godlike wrote:

Thanks jmannik for choosing V2 SLI too.

No need to thank me, I was just basing my advice on what is most suitable for the system of that time frame.

At that time I was running a K6-2+ 500MHz with 256mb Ram and a Voodoo Banshee. The only person I knew who had a machine that ran games as well as my pc was running a similar CPU but was running a TNT2 Ultra.
A TNT2 Ultra combined with Voodoo 2 SLI will give you glide support (which covers a lot of games), and also good image quality of the TNT2's 32bit textures.

Actually I don't know what I have in mind when selling my Voodoo2'sli? maybe just get bored of quality? After day&nights when collect some free parts like ASUS P5S-B with K6-2 400Mhz. I decided to rebuild one of my P1 rigs. I will replace soon hardware in this AT case (Pentium 133Mhz, Intel 430VX, ATI Rage II) with P5S-B, 400Mhz CPU, 512Mb Crucial and Diamond 8MB SLI. One of my Diamonds card is broken and i need to fix it. Also I have passthrough but need to make my own SLI link. I like the AT case I've got it with motherboard tray, what a useful thing! (sorry for offtop)

HighTreason, Do your research. Here's a website full of data: http://www.vintage3d.org . Compare the 3dfx screenshots to everything else and 3dfx FPS to everything else. The first competitor, Riva 128, appeared only a year later and while it also had good FPS, the picture is way worse.

Well, Glackenburgen has probably been scared off and he got an FX5600 already anyway, but I'll step in this pile of dog crap with my opinion:

I'm currently building a similar system, except with a P2 400mhz CPU and AWE64 sound card. I'll be using an AGP Voodoo 3 paired with a Voodoo 1 for best gaming compatibility. I highly recommend the V3 + V1 + AWE64 combo.

I also have a Slot 1 1ghz Coppermine if I ever want more power for this system, but I don't plan on using it. I've got other, more powerful systems for more demanding games.

Are there any Win9x-only games that require a system faster than 450mhz with a Voodoo 3? I can't think of any off the top of my head, and I suspect a more modern/powerful WinXP system can pick up where the 450mhz DOS/Win9x machine leaves off.

KT7AGuy wrote:

Are there any Win9x-only games that require a system faster than 450mhz with a Voodoo 3? I can't think of any off the top of my head, and I suspect a more modern/powerful WinXP system can pick up where the 450mhz DOS/Win9x machine leaves off.

I have a hard time thinking of any Win9x-only games in general..... 😀

Aureal A3D is essentially Win9x-only so there's that. Also, some old EAX games sound incorrect with other OSs.

They exist to many to list really most everything popular works in XP too so its mostly obscure older little studio titles that have issues. MS did not fix all its compat issues with 9x games in XP, tho its much, much, better then 2k.
Also still don't understand HT's adversion to 3dfx.
Nvidia was hardly mentioned till the TNT, and ATI was flat out thought as oem junk, due to its rampant use there, next to S3.
I really don't remember anyone I knew wanting to buy an ATI card for 3d gaming before the 9700\9800 pro. That gpu majorly changed their image.

Sorry for mentioning the V2 I guess 😳
I really did not see he already had a 5600 either.

AlphaWing wrote:

They exist to many to list really most everything popular works in XP too so its mostly obscure older little studio titles that […]
Show full quote

They exist to many to list really most everything popular works in XP too so its mostly obscure older little studio titles that have issues. MS did not fix all its compat issues with 9x games in XP, tho its much, much, better then 2k.
Also still don't understand HT's adversion to 3dfx.
Nvidia was hardly mentioned till the TNT, and ATI was flat out thought as oem junk, due to its rampant use there, next to S3.
I really don't remember anyone I knew wanting to buy an ATI card for 3d gaming before the 9700\9800 pro. That gpu majorly changed their image.

Sorry for mentioning the V2 I guess 😳
I really did not see he already had a 5600 either.

He is a pom. I remember watching one of his youtube vids called "failed 586 build" and all I can remember of it is him whinging and moaning because it wasnt working reliably and it really seemed like he hadnt done any real troubleshooting on the system and decided to blame the board and set it on fire... I wouldnt really worry about him, he is quite wrong about everything.

*I am australian and there is a general rivalry between australia and the UK.

Wow! It's like a whole page dedicated to me. I guess I hit a nerve, never understood why people get like this about silly things but as long as they do I'll keep smiling - yeah, I practically get off on this so keep it up.

Bit tired of this 85% garbage, simply not true.

One user points to a website instead of doing any real research. Pathetic. Try looking through prods on Pouet, pretty much NO 3DFX demos exist - probably a good reason for that, in fact there is but it's up to you to find out seeing as you're so good at this research stuff.

Like it or not, the Rage sold better and performed better on almost every level. The TNT was the final nail really, 3DFX were already killing themselves anyway and the TNT sealed the deal... Once the GeForce and Radeon boards arrived it was all over, though 3DFX at least provided us with a laugh with the VSA-100.

A few of my best friends are Australian, no rivalry there really... They have no input on this issue though as they aren't computer guys, to them it's just a "Facebook machine" really. Either way, thanks for contributing to the viewcount, all helps my ranking in the search results.

Who was selling the Voodoo 2's? Might buy those from you for my Celeron, don't use that rig so I don't mind ruining it, may as well have some fun with it, I can always just find an idiot to sell the cards to when I'm done enjoying 3fps gameplay with bi-linear filtering and frequent crashes and decide I'd rather have an OS that won't start up.

Have you actually played a game on a Rage\TNT in 16-bit color?
Then played that same game on a voodoo 3 or Banshee?
The difference is night and day.
32-bit color was often to slow to be usable till we hit Geforce+DDR.
Most games were optimized for 3dfx, and they had this 22-bit color dither-filter going on for 16-bit modes.
Really Noone is gonna recommend a Rage 128 pro over a Voodoo 3, especially when you throw dos games into the equation.
Not to mention the reason ATI was considered a joke back then was their extremely unstable drivers.
People wanted to upgrade away from the OEM rage cards that came with their PC ASAP.

I can't believe you guys are having a flame war about 20-year old tech. Let's try to keep it civilized so that I don't have to lock the thread. Debate is cool but let's avoid trolling please.

3dfx was great for a while because they were the trailblazers. I remember being blown away when my cousin showed me Quake 1 running on a 3D accelerator. The writing was pretty much on the wall when the TNT1 hit the market though.

My first accelerator was a TNT1, and it did 32-bit rendering, multitexturing, trilinear filtering, etc. and therefore looked a lot better than the Voodoo stuff my friends had (Half-Life looked beautiful and ran just fine in 32-bit on my PII-450, and I ran most games in 32-bit color until around the time that Quake 3 came out and overtaxed my TNT1). The problem was that some game engines had been built around Glide and had crappy D3D performance; Unreal 1 stands out as an example, although they finally got its D3D support built up to something decent. The tables quickly turned on 3dfx, though, as developers started primarily targeting D3D in order to reach the widest audience possible. I was able to use my TNT1 all the way until Black & White came out and required hardware transform & lighting, at which point my cousin bought me a Geforce2 MX.

3dfx tried to cling to their proprietary Glide API as a way to maintain a stranglehold on the market, while also slowing down on hardware innovation, and it eventually bit them in the ass when developers realized that they would need to target Direct3D in order to sell more copies of their games. Creative Labs tried to do the same thing with EAX on their sound cards, but the wind went right out of their sails once CPUs got powerful enough to handle sound processing without breaking a sweat, and then Vista came along and enforced a software sound stack (with OpenAL or hacks like ALchemy being the only alternatives). I really don't have patience for companies that try to compete via marketing tricks or proprietary tools instead of by making better products.

Rage screenshot gallery. That's what is pathetic. http://vintage3d.org/flashgallery/rage.php#st … d.NwLBhT0E.dpbs

Even Grim Fandango does not work right. Or how do you fancy Tomb Raider without textures? What are you trying to prove, kid?

My own experience was similar to HunterZ but reversed. I started out S3 + V1, moved up to a V2, then gave the TNT a shot but found IQ a real disappointment and went back to 3dfx with a V5, which stayed in service until a P4 motherboard upgrade without an AGP 2x slot forced me to give up 3dfx entirely. Looking back that point was the unofficial start of my interest in 'retro' as I always maintained a 3dfx compatible box to supplement my main rig.

The allure of Glide/3dfx had a lot to do with it's immediately recognizable 'glide' image quality - if you really liked it there were few substitutes - at least until glide wrappers arrived. Today I find the V3-3000 to be the sweet spot of the lot. It's powerful enough to handle most 3dfx games of the period fine, has great IQ, it's is a very good one card solution, and is currently one of the cheapest 3dfx parts on the used market.

tincup wrote:

My own experience was similar to HunterZ but reversed. I started out S3 + V1, moved up to a V2, then gave the TNT a shot but found IQ a real disappointment and went back to 3dfx with a V5, which stayed in service until a P4 motherboard upgrade without an AGP 2x slot forced me to give up 3dfx entirely. Looking back that point was the unofficial start of my interest in 'retro' as I always maintained a 3dfx compatible box to supplement my main rig.

Interesting. I would guess that you must have been playing a bunch of earlier Glide-optimized games when you got the TNT1, or that you didn't get the later ones running in 32-bit color with trilinear filtering?