VOGONS


First post, by carlostex

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On my Socket 7 builds i rather prefer ATX boards, and i became fond of motherboards with 4 ISA slots. Reason is that i like having lots of sound standards to enjoy, playing the same games with different sounding music leads to a different experience.

I've been craving to get this Industrial DFI board, the ITOX 586, with 6 ISA and 2 PCI slots and even integrated S3 Trio graphics. Finding these boards is quite difficult, so i've been settling on my ASUS TX-97XE.

One of the things i find interesting is undocumented FSB settings. I've been impressed how i could make my 286 to behave close to a 4.77MHz XT class machine. Using an 8MHz clock oscillator, i found myself playing games like Digger or Moon Patrol very close to what a real XT would feel. In fact, Digger felt really nice at its speed was pretty much around the sweet spot.
Some motherboards, have frequency generators with undocumented settings that allow you to divide the reference clock (coming from a 14.318MHz osci) by 2 effectively giving an FSB of 7.159 MHz. This became a very standard ISA bus speed for 486 motherboards at least.

On my case i'm wondering how easy would be to replace a ICS9169CJ-272 (which comes with my TX-97XE) and replace it with a ICS9169CJ-27 which differes from the former to allow exactly that Reference clock divided by 2. Using my K6+ CPU, i could clock it at around 15MHz with a 2x multiplier setting.

At 15MHz it's difficult to say how fast the system with be, but i believe around a 386DX. The K6 is much faster than a 386 but it is hampered by running only at 15MHz and a 7Mhz bus. I would say maybe around a 386DX 33 or touching a 40MHz.

Reaching 386 speeds is nothing remarkable that can be done by turning off caches, but turning internal cache off could potentially make the system as slow as a early 286 and all caches off could even turn the system into a XT class machine. This could result in the most versatile DOS machine ever!!

Now this would require some hardware modding, i checked datasheets and both frequency generators are pin compatible. Soetimes you find boards with one or the other but unfortunately ASUS boards (both the TX-97XE or the TXP4-X) are mostly found with the ICS9169CJ-272, which doesn't allow to select REFERENCE/2.

If i ever get a spare board and if i can source ICS9169CJ-27 frequency generators i'll be definitely be trying this. I think the biggest challence is to desolder the old chip first. I was very encouraged to try SMT soldering when i saw how easy high quality EDSYN solder flux makes it to solder SMT components.

Reply 2 of 9, by Logistics

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j^aws wrote:

Changing the clock generator may work in an all-ISA system, but what about PCI buses - wouldn't they be affected and be out-of-spec?

I think j^aws is correct about compatibility problems on the PCI bus. Years ago I used to strap low-end 386 boards (which likely were all-ISA boards) with different crystals and re-wire a trace or two to make them run as slowly as possible--usually the customer was aiming for less than 8MHz, slower if possible. All this was to run newer hardware in some old dialysis machines which couldn't be run at modern speeds because it affected how they ran, but who were beginning to be defunct because they originally ran on either 8086's or 286's, and even in '95 that was beginning to be a problem to acquire.

Reply 3 of 9, by shamino

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I'll be curious to hear whether this works out.

Some years ago I got to reading about some clock generators that support smoothly changing clock rates without crashing the system. Some were even programmable using a device programmer, but I didn't really understand the parameters.
I thought it would be cool to set up a DOS game machine which could change clock speeds on the fly from multiple presets, hopefully covering a wide range. I was imagining a big knob with a bunch of marked detents. It was just a thought though, I never actually tried such a thing.

Reply 4 of 9, by carlostex

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j^aws wrote:

Changing the clock generator may work in an all-ISA system, but what about PCI buses - wouldn't they be affected and be out-of-spec?

Yes it most certainly will, and this is probably the main reason why some boards while having a clock generator that may have a 7 MHz undocumented setting will stop the system from booting up. Some boards do boot up but that may be by not using a PCI card at all or using one that works. For DOS systems we mostly use video cards on the PCI bus, at least i do, some might boot and most probably won't, but this is something i'm very willing to try.

Reply 5 of 9, by j^aws

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^^ If you can get the board to boot with an ISA VGA card but not a PCI VGA card, then you could always try out the dual PCI/ISA switching trick for certain cards I tested:

486 Mobos: Can you install multiple VGA cards - like AGP/ PCI switching?

You'll need a VGA switcher or something similar, but that's trivial.

Reply 6 of 9, by carlostex

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This is something i could consider as well, i actually read that thread sometime before, however i wouldn't want to lose an ISA slot for an ISA VGA. This would be rather easier on an industrial motherboard.

Reply 7 of 9, by meljor

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k6+ cpu does 6x multi when 2x is selected right? Or can it do 2x when set in software?

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1

Reply 8 of 9, by carlostex

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meljor wrote:

k6+ cpu does 6x multi when 2x is selected right? Or can it do 2x when set in software?

2x multiplier jumper setting is interpreted by the CPU as 6x, and to set it 2x via hardware you set the jumpers to 2.5x .

Via software it's up to the programmer, so there's no reason why a programmer would develop a tool where 2x isn't interpreted as 2x.

Reply 9 of 9, by meljor

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Didn't know about 2.5x beeing 2x.
Learned something.

asus tx97-e, 233mmx, voodoo1, s3 virge ,sb16
asus p5a, k6-3+ @ 550mhz, voodoo2 12mb sli, gf2 gts, awe32
asus p3b-f, p3-700, voodoo3 3500TV agp, awe64
asus tusl2-c, p3-S 1,4ghz, voodoo5 5500, live!
asus a7n8x DL, barton cpu, 6800ultra, Voodoo3 pci, audigy1