VOGONS


Recommend me a Creative ISA card

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Reply 60 of 73, by Kodai

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That is only one type of hanging note bug. There is the more common bug that has a continuous repeating note that will go away when a new scene/level/song is loaded. Then there is a bug that causes a hard lockup from a resource conflict that keeps the note playing until the system is reset. There are a number hanging note bugs and they are all connected to sound blasters with certain DSP's. Those DSP's were used in everything from SB16's to AWE32's. Some versions are far more prone to certain hanging note bugs vs others.

In the end, it sounds like a serious issue to try and avoid. It's really a minor problem that is a major issue for those if us that are hardcore collectors and gamers. For the vast majority of retro PC gamers, its a rare issue that can be worked around with little to no effort. Same can be said for those new to the hobby.

Since the OP made it clear that there was a limited budget for a machine that was only pulling DOS duty, then I can only say that the hanging note issues is not something to put a lot of thought and effort into.

Reply 61 of 73, by gdjacobs

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I wouldn't put a lot of money into it, but I'd recommend eliminating the problem if he can.

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Reply 62 of 73, by boxpressed

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If you're just starting out, there's no reason not to avoid the hanging note bug if you can for a few additional dollars. Because you mention an interest in using a daughterboard, a consideration that will be of greater importance to you is the height of the ISA card and the placement of the DB header. The Audician and other YMF719-based cards are half-height cards, which means that full-sized DBs such as those from Roland, Yamaha, NEC, Korg, and Creative won't fit. A good SB16 like the CT2230 allows you to use any size DB.

Reply 63 of 73, by Kodai

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The reason I recommend the Audician 32 plus on the other page was due to solving all issues at once. It is a low profile card so an adaptor would have to be used in the case of a full height daughter board is used for midi. The adaptor is cheap and easy to make. It's a simple and cheap solution that covers all the bases with excellent compatibility, and very good sound quality while avoiding the hanging note bug and for under $15.00.

Last edited by Kodai on 2015-12-30, 05:45. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 64 of 73, by clueless1

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I got the Vibra16 for about the same price ($14.95) as the Audician 32 Plus,so hopefully the hanging note bug doesn't become an issue. And I went ahead and ordered a DreamBlaster S1 once I realized it could take a few weeks to arrive. Now that I'm replaying some favorites, I'm really missing some form of General MIDI music. 🙁 And at this stage in my life, the simpler the better. Inexpensive is good too.

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Reply 65 of 73, by clueless1

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clueless1 wrote:

gdjacobs-thanks! I'll give it a shot as soon as I can.

All-I've included a photo of the card for anyone curious:

1223151223a.jpg

All:

Apologies for the necro post, but I wanted to leave this info for future generations that might read through it.

There was a lot of wisdom in this thread about using the Aztech sound card. Now that I have the Sound Blaster 16 in one PC and the Aztech in another, I can easily compare them. Without a doubt, the Aztech is the better sounding card. The OPL3 emulation is identical, don't get me wrong. But the Aztech is *much* quieter at volume. I can turn my speakers up to the maximum comfortable level and not hear background hiss with the Aztech. The SB16 Vibra (CT2800) which is supposed to be one of the quieter Sound Blasters, has significantly more hiss at the same volume. This after playing with the mixer settings on both cards exhaustively. Also, in addition to being quieter, the Aztech seems to have a richer, fuller sound. Both cards are "line out" (the Aztech does not have amplified "speaker out").

There was also a lot of wisdom about the hanging note bug. My advice, now that I've lived through this for a bit and made some mistakes: If you EVER intend to use a MIDI daughtercard, do yourself a favor and avoid any Creative card with the hanging note bug. It's not worth it. Tie Fighter is very bad. A note will get stuck almost immediately and play continuously until you exit the game. Duke Nukem 3D is also bad, but in a different way. Typically the note that hangs is in the upper range of my hearing (kind of like an old tube TV that whines). It literally can be heard throughout the house even when the rest of the game sounds can't. It drills into the brain. Family members walk by and ask what that sound is. Pets stay as far away from the sound as they can. I now have an Audician 32 Plus on order, and should have got that in the first place, rather than the CT2800. I imagine it will sound very similar to the Aztech, but with a wavetable header.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
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Reply 66 of 73, by Tertz

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clueless1 wrote:

the Aztech seems to have a richer, fuller sound

Seems your Aztech has no filters or has them switched off. This may give less authentic and worse sound in old games wich were designed for normal SB wich used filters. Similar situation may to be with Yamaha 71x cards.

If you EVER intend to use a MIDI daughtercard, do yourself a favor and avoid any Creative card with the hanging note bug. It's not worth it.

People here warned about this.

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Reply 67 of 73, by BloodyCactus

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clueless1 wrote:

The OPL3 emulation is identical, don't get me wrong.

the emulation might be identical, but its also not genuine OPL3... which makes a difference imo.

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Reply 68 of 73, by clueless1

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BloodyCactus wrote:
clueless1 wrote:

The OPL3 emulation is identical, don't get me wrong.

the emulation might be identical, but its also not genuine OPL3... which makes a difference imo.

Go to the bottom of the first page of this thread and take a close look at the photo I posted of the Aztech. Hint: look for Yamaha chips.

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Reply 69 of 73, by clueless1

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Tertz wrote:
clueless1 wrote:

the Aztech seems to have a richer, fuller sound

Seems your Aztech has no filters or has them switched off. This may give less authentic and worse sound in old games wich were designed for normal SB wich used filters. Similar situation may to be with Yamaha 71x cards.

The oldest games I play are from about 1990 and I have not noticed anything like you mention. Maybe this will happen in games older than 1990?

Tertz wrote:
clueless1 wrote:

If you EVER intend to use a MIDI daughtercard, do yourself a favor and avoid any Creative card with the hanging note bug. It's not worth it.

People here warned about this.

Yes, but during my decision process other people also said that the hanging note bug is blown out of proportion. I suppose if you will never use a MIDI daughtercard, then it is blown out of proportion.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
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Reply 70 of 73, by Kodai

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I didn't mean to suggest that the bug is not something to consider. I was trying to point out that depending on the DSP version you have, the bug can be a very minor issue and should not prevent somebody from considering a genuine Sound Blaster. Some DSP's are so susceptible to the hanging note bug, that they should never be used with a wavetable board or external midi modules. However, the most common variant of the bug and the most common DSP with the problem is so minor its not really worth spending loads of time or money to circumvent. The most common version of the bug is just the what the description says. A single hanging note. Its not some super loud, sound that causes ears to bleed, and almost every time it happens (if you can even notice it in the heat of gameplay), it self corrects when loading a new map or going to a new level in a game. It does not stick until a reboot. The worst version of the but does indeed do that. In fact it can stay running from a soft reset. You have to power down the rig and do a cold start to recover from that version of the bug.

But that bug only happens in a handful of games with a handful of Sound Blasters. While there is no complete list of games and cards that details all the bug variants, there are many posts on Vogons alone that give most of the info you need too either avoid it or minimize its effects in your rig. With all the info here and quite a few other sites, its really not a big issue and shouldn't consume your thoughts on a build.

Sound clarity is something all together different. All Creative Labs' cards are god awful sounding until you get to the AWE64 line of cards. Line noise, static, pops, hiss, and whatever else you can think of are pretty much in all of them. Creative frequently ignored specs of the off the shelf parts used in their cards, and used very low quality parts for all the glu logic. On top of that, their layouts were designed to cut costs so the used lots of very cheap parts instead of a few parts that would cost more. This just added more crap to the boards (ie extra resistors, diodes, caps, etc) and tons of extra long circuit traces, massive voltage and ground planes, which all added up to make the noisy boards you hear on and pre AWE64 card. By the time they started using quality parts, following specs and reducing board layout for better sound, they had stopped using Yamaha OPL's and started using their own CQM chips.

In the end, you shouldn't ignore Sound Blaster cards because a few models are prone to a somewhat minor bug. That bug can be avoided by getting the right cards or ignoring the games that can cause it. You should consider other cards if you want better quaily sound. But beware the offset by do so. You will find a number of games from the late 80's through the late 90's that wont work with a "Sound Blaster" compatible sound card because it lacks Creative's DSP. Having a genuine Sound Blaster avoids this issue.

When it comes to FM sound cards, and retro rigs, you will have to build up a collection of them if you want to play a large selection of games A) without trouble, and B) with the best possible sound.

P.S. please ignore typing and grammar errors as I'm using new tablet and having issues with the touch screen. I hate it.

Reply 71 of 73, by Skyscraper

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A CT3670 SB32 PNP is a nice choice for those who can manage to live without a Waveblaster header.

It uses CQM OPL emulation though but it should not be very noisy and its the only AWE64 based card with 30pin memory slots.

New PC: i9 12900K @5GHz all cores @1.2v. MSI PRO Z690-A. 32GB DDR4 3600 CL14. 3070Ti.
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Older PC: K6-3+ 400@600MHz, PC-Chips M577, 256MB SDRAM, AWE64, Voodoo Banshee.

Reply 72 of 73, by clueless1

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Kodai,

And I didn't mean to point any fingers. I'm the one who wanted a "Creative ISA card". I didn't give non-Creative cards enough of a chance in my decision process. And I believe you (along with Phil and others) were the ones who recommended the Audician 32 Plus. 😀

I just wanted to share my experience so that someone else who comes along in a similar position that I was in might not think "Creative Labs cards are the only ones I should consider". I don't think the CT2800 is a bad card at all. Overall it sounds very good. It's not as quiet as the Aztech, but being Creative is guaranteed to be compatible. I just did not give enough weight or respect to the hanging note issue. IMO, if it affects even one game that you are going to play, then it should be avoided. And someone who has no interest in wavetable can ignore all of this. 🤣. Cheers!

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
OPL3 FM vs. Roland MT-32 vs. General MIDI DOS Game Comparison
Let's benchmark our systems with cache disabled
DOS PCI Graphics Card Benchmarks

Reply 73 of 73, by Kodai

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Oh, I wasn't reacting to your post. I was just trying to clear up some details in case somebody uses the thread for information in the future. The Audician 32 Plus is far from being an ideal card. Its just great for being an new/unused, genuine OPL based card that is SB compatible for most games. Its also pretty clean sounding, and can be made to work well in a pure DOS environment as well as mixed in with other sound cards. All that and cheap to boot.

But its got drawbacks as well. Its pretty clean sounding on line out mode (which is a jumper setting that you have to remember to set as the default is for non powered speakers), but its non powered speaker mode makes use of its onboard amp and its both weak, and a bit noisy. Its low profile, so using full or medium sized wavetable boards cant be done without making an adaptor cable. Its DOS software is rather clunky and not very intuitive. It lacks XG or any wave synth at all, so you have to add a wavetable board or external module if you want midi.

But if all a user wants is a reliable, cost effective OPL based FM card for the majority of Sound Blaster games then its a fantastic card and should be at the top of the list.