We are talking about a 386, back when many sound cards either had separate line out/speaker out or a jumper to use or bypass an amp. I've seen cheap Socket A motherboards that can barely drive a pair of headphones, so you can easily presume that these cards predate the 'multi-function' outputs... Which are just amplified outputs in the first place, but designed not to exceed the line levels.
wrote:We are talking about a 386, back when many sound cards either had separate line out/speaker out or a jumper to use or bypass an amp.
They did?
In the 386 age, you mainly had Adlib, Sound Blasters and clones.
The original Adlib only had a single jack.
Sound Blasters had 2 or 3 jacks on the back:
- Line out/phones
- Line in (on SB 2.0 and newer)
- Mic in
Most clones did exactly the same.
Multi-function existed before separate outputs. Please try not to speak about things you know nothing about. You are wasting my time and annoying me, while you could just have simply googled what a 386-era sound card looks like, since apparently you've never actually seen one.
Here you go: 
It even literally says it has a 4 watt amp and you can connect any kind of speakers (including unpowered obviously, hence the 4W) and headsets.
And also, cables provided to connect to your home stereo. That would be the line-out functionality.
Clearly you wouldn't put the volume on full for that, or you'd damage your equipment. Some volume controls had a notch on them, indicating where you need to put it when using it as line-out.
Same for the Adlib: 
Says you can connect it to headphones, speakers or stereo.
wrote:The sound card's output (which is usually designed as 'multi-function', so both for headphones and line-out) has to drive the li […]
wrote:How exactly does a sound card -drive- its line-IN?
The sound card's output (which is usually designed as 'multi-function', so both for headphones and line-out) has to drive the line-in of an amp obviously (should have been obvious, since I also mentioned headphones, which also aren't part of the sound card itself).
wrote:And what does a line-in have to do with speakers?
The signal levels of an industry standard line-in are specified, and are more than adequate to power a set of 4/8 ohm speakers to an audible level (sound cards have low-impedance solid-state amps).
So if your sound card can produce enough of a signal to make it work properly with the line-in of an amp, you will be able to hear it when you plug in headphones or speakers. These are simple facts in the realm of electronics. There's no point in arguing.
You are assuming all speakers and sound cards ever built complied with industry standards.
That would be called a novice mistake
.
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wrote:You are assuming all speakers and sound cards ever built complied with industry standards.
That would be called a novice mistake
On the contrary.
It isn't exactly 'industry standard' to have a single output and (ab)use it for three different uses.
They are 'bending the rules' somewhat, and made a single output that works in all three situations, although this is obviously a compromise for the signal quality.
wrote:If you are talking about a pure, theoretical line-out circuit yes. But we aren't. As I already said: […]
wrote:Anyway, as per the link you provided, line out is meant to be a low impedance output driving a high impedance input. A 600ohm output driving a 10ohm speaker means that most of the power will be dissipated on the card itself, drastically reducing signal strength.
If you are talking about a pure, theoretical line-out circuit yes. But we aren't.
As I already said:wrote:The sound card's output (which is usually designed as 'multi-function', so both for headphones and line-out)
...
(sound cards have low-impedance solid-state amps).Please, try to keep up.
For example, taken from Creative's own FAQ...
Clearly the 'line out' is designed to be used with headphones as well, which are (usually) low-impedance, like speakers (which is why the concept of unpowered Walkman-speakers came about... plugging such speakers into a headphones output works fine. Headphones that come with a Walkman are usually very low impedance for better battery efficiency).
You are fixated on what YOU use or have used.
But that is not all there has ever been
I've had sound cards that only had one jack.
.
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wrote:On the contrary. It isn't exactly 'industry standard' to have a single output and (ab)use it for three different uses. They are […]
wrote:You are assuming all speakers and sound cards ever built complied with industry standards.
That would be called a novice mistakeOn the contrary.
It isn't exactly 'industry standard' to have a single output and (ab)use it for three different uses.
They are 'bending the rules' somewhat, and made a single output that works in all three situations, although this is obviously a compromise for the signal quality.
No it's NOT on the contrary. - ESPECIALLY in the computer industry.
RAM doesn't even always comply with industry standards.
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wrote:I've had sound cards that only had one jack.
That's exactly what I'm saying, is it not?
Early sound cards had one output jack, which was multi-function (if they didn't have an ADC, such as the Adlib, the output was all they had).
Even on most current onboard audio chips, there is one output (usually green) that acts as line-out or headphones.
wrote:No it's NOT on the contrary. - ESPECIALLY in the computer industry.
RAM doesn't even always comply with industry standards.
Which is exactly my point, once again.
Stop bothering me.
And I've had sound cards that couldn't make any sound in speakers that didn't have their own amplifier. aka unpowered speakers.
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wrote:wrote:No it's NOT on the contrary. - ESPECIALLY in the computer industry.
RAM doesn't even always comply with industry standards.Which is exactly my point, once again.
Stop bothering me.
Bothering you?
YOU are the one that started this.
Right here =>> by Scali » 2016-1-14 @ 01:03
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wrote:I would say they are. The output is either meant for line-level output or for headphones. Line-out level is more than enough to […]
wrote:Yes sound cards have amps but they aren't necessarily powerful enough to drive unpowered speakers.
I would say they are.
The output is either meant for line-level output or for headphones.
Line-out level is more than enough to drive headphones or speakers directly.
And unpowered speakers are usually either 4 or 8 ohms, which makes them more sensitive than most headphones (headphones tend to be in the range of 25-600 ohms). So if you can drive headphones at a decent level, unpowered speakers will work fine as well, as a rule of thumb.
In fact, these unpowered speakers became popular back in the days of the Walkman, where they were meant to be used on the headphones output of a Walkman.
Speaker impedance is not indicative of sensitivity. Loudness at 1m distance with 1W drive power is the definition of speaker sensitivity. The speaker will likely require more power to drive, though.
wrote:I bought a set of Sony unpowered Walkman speakers many years ago, and I still use them on my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0. They can get […]
I bought a set of Sony unpowered Walkman speakers many years ago, and I still use them on my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0. They can get pretty loud at full volume, those early SB cards had quite beefy amps.
My speakers are something like this:
Don't count on this working for all sound cards. A line level output configured specifically to interface with a preamp will often bypass any current amplification stage to reduce noise. To drive unpowered speakers from such a configuration with any volume would only be possible if the speakers have very high efficiency or operate strictly in the muddy middle, otherwise you rapidly reach the current limits of the op amp.
All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder
wrote:YOU are the one that started this.
Started what?
I simply pointed out that early soundcards were specifically designed to power headphones or unpowered speakers.
Which is obviously a fact, which I have proven by showing that they were literally advertised as such.
You keep arguing against this, despite the obvious proof right in front of you, which is bothering me.
wrote:Speaker impedance is not indicative of sensitivity. Loudness at 1m distance with 1W drive power is the definition of speaker sen […]
wrote:I would say they are. The output is either meant for line-level output or for headphones. Line-out level is more than enough to […]
wrote:Yes sound cards have amps but they aren't necessarily powerful enough to drive unpowered speakers.
I would say they are.
The output is either meant for line-level output or for headphones.
Line-out level is more than enough to drive headphones or speakers directly.
And unpowered speakers are usually either 4 or 8 ohms, which makes them more sensitive than most headphones (headphones tend to be in the range of 25-600 ohms). So if you can drive headphones at a decent level, unpowered speakers will work fine as well, as a rule of thumb.
In fact, these unpowered speakers became popular back in the days of the Walkman, where they were meant to be used on the headphones output of a Walkman.Speaker impedance is not indicative of sensitivity. Loudness at 1m distance with 1W drive power is the definition of speaker sensitivity. The speaker will likely require more power to drive, though.
wrote:I bought a set of Sony unpowered Walkman speakers many years ago, and I still use them on my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0. They can get […]
I bought a set of Sony unpowered Walkman speakers many years ago, and I still use them on my Sound Blaster Pro 2.0. They can get pretty loud at full volume, those early SB cards had quite beefy amps.
My speakers are something like this:
Don't count on this working for all sound cards. A line level output configured specifically to interface with a preamp will often bypass any current amplification stage to reduce noise. To drive unpowered speakers from such a configuration with any volume would only be possible if the speakers have very high efficiency or operate strictly in the muddy middle, otherwise you rapidly reach the current limits of the op amp.
Exactly.
Thank you.
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wrote:Speaker impedance is not indicative of sensitivity. Loudness at 1m distance with 1W drive power is the definition of speaker sensitivity.
I'm not saying it is.
wrote:Don't count on this working for all sound cards.
Not saying that.
Just saying that it works for Adlibs and Sound Blasters, and most clones from that era.
Because, as I've already argued, they aren't conventional line-outs. They are just small power-amps, where you adjust volume depending on whether you use them for headphones, speakers or line-out.
wrote:wrote:YOU are the one that started this.
Started what?
Right here =>> by Scali » 2016-1-14 @ 01:03
Sorry. But not all sound cards can drive unpowered speakers.
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wrote:Sorry. But not all sound cards can drive unpowered speakers.
I never said all sound cards can do this.
wrote:wrote:Yes sound cards have amps but they aren't necessarily powerful enough to drive unpowered speakers.
I would say they are.
Right there you did.
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wrote:wrote:wrote:Yes sound cards have amps but they aren't necessarily powerful enough to drive unpowered speakers.
I would say they are.
Yes, the ones we're talking about here, yes (the part you failed to quote)...
If an output can:
a) Drive headphones
b) Be used as line-out
Then the conclusion is:
a) It can handle devices with low-impedance such as headphones/speakers
b) It can produce a signal to a certain nominal level
Combine a) and b) and you pretty much can't go wrong powering some speakers.
So yes, any sound card with a multi-purpose output (which is all early Adlibs and Sound Blasters, most clones, and probably 99% of all consumer soundcards/onboard in use today) will drive speakers.
There will be exceptions, but they will be rare.
Given that this topic is about 386-era soundcards, chances of it not working are pretty much 0. Unpowered speakers were a very common use-case in those days, and in fact, various 'multimedia kits' were even sold like that (sound card bundled with speakers, microphone, CD-ROM drive, some software, sometimes also a MIDI kit).
Goddamit. I typed this answer back in university and left, only to find out it did not go through until I powered my laptop at home. Anyway, I'll read the later answers after lunch. Anyway:
wrote:They did? In the 386 age, you mainly had Adlib, Sound Blasters and clones. The original Adlib only had a single jack. Sound Blas […]
wrote:We are talking about a 386, back when many sound cards either had separate line out/speaker out or a jumper to use or bypass an amp.
They did?
In the 386 age, you mainly had Adlib, Sound Blasters and clones.
The original Adlib only had a single jack.
Sound Blasters had 2 or 3 jacks on the back:
- Line out/phones
- Line in (on SB 2.0 and newer)
- Mic inMost clones did exactly the same.
Multi-function existed before separate outputs.
I goofed and thought about 486/Pentium era sound cards - which is embarassing as I studyied the schematics of the Adlib quite a few times.
Anyway, one of my points still stands: unamplified outputs can't drive speakers. All those sound cards were aplified (even though they might have an unitary gain to remain line-level compatible). Though, to be fair, I agree that for the OP this discussion isn't very interesting... the only cards without amplifiers at all I've ever seen are cheap PCI ones (which do have the pads for amplifiers, but were unpopulated) or onboard sound on some very cheap motherboards from a later era.
wrote:Anyway, one of my points still stands: unamplified outputs can't drive speakers.
Agreed.
wrote:All those sound cards were aplified (even though they might have an unitary gain to remain line-level compatible).
Agreed.
wrote:Though, to be fair, I agree that for the OP this discussion isn't very interesting... the only cards without amplifiers at all I've ever seen are cheap PCI ones (which do have the pads for amplifiers, but were unpopulated) or onboard sound on some very cheap motherboards from a later era.
Agreed.
