I would also say some 386 or 486 build. I have some that I have not yet understood if broken or just difficult to setup. But obviously I find easier to stabilize many setup just using the exact time correct components.

I think in general the older the system, the harder it gets. Hardware just seems more particular the further you go back.

I have a 486 VLB system with SCSI HDD and optical, but I've never been able to get the ISA soundcard to work (CT4520) in DOS or WFW, regardless of drivers and configurations tried. And I know the soundcard is good. If I move that soundcard to my Pentium Pro Windows 98 box, it works no problem. I've come to realize I really don't like messing with anything pre-Win98.

AllUrBaseRBelong2Us wrote:

I think in general the older the system, the harder it gets. Hardware just seems more particular the further you go back.

I have a 486 VLB system with SCSI HDD and optical, but I've never been able to get the ISA soundcard to work (CT4520) in DOS or WFW, regardless of drivers and configurations tried. And I know the soundcard is good. If I move that soundcard to my Pentium Pro Windows 98 box, it works no problem. I've come to realize I really don't like messing with anything pre-Win98.

For example I have a 486 VLB config I can't boot up right. When using a functional Overdrive 100Mhz it boot up as 120Mhz... with a 66Mhz it boot up ok but still the VLB controller I have seems to run for some and then hang during disk reading.. sometimes it hangs during floppy boot... anyway the most complex jumpers setup ever seen..

386SX wrote:

For example I have a 486 VLB config I can't boot up right. When using a functional Overdrive 100Mhz it boot up as 120Mhz... with a 66Mhz it boot up ok but still the VLB controller I have seems to run for some and then hang during disk reading.. sometimes it hangs during floppy boot... anyway the most complex jumpers setup ever seen..

The jumpers of the old days remind me of all the vacuum hoses on the old carburetor'd cars. When they went to fuel injection and ECU, everything became easier.

I was lucky with my VLB and SCSI setup in my 486...it worked without much effort. In fact, it was the PCI video I never could get work right in my 486, which led me to buy a VLB video card.

I believe most dificulties with SS7 can be negated by using period-correct hardware (mainly AGP cards that do not use AGP features - like a Banshee).

AllUrBaseRBelong2Us wrote:

I think in general the older the system, the harder it gets. Hardware just seems more particular the further you go back.

Not necessarily. I have a single 8088 system and it might probably be the easiest thing I've ever had to setup. A single jumper and a set of DIP switches that are well described in the included documentation. Not a lot of places to mess up. But it is a late (1989) Turbo-XT clone motherboard so small that makes mini-ITX boards look big. Early 8088 systems are probably much harder to work, with more jumpers and discrete components to troubleshoot. IMHO it is also about how mature a particular platform is: by 1989 a late 8088 board like mine was out when making XT clones was already an old art, whereas 486s had just been introduced and had to deal with early chipsets. If you want a challenge in most retro-systems, get their early iterations and have fun.

VLB systems are on another league, though, as I don't believe VLB was ever trully mature. If was born after the 486 and died before it, being replaced by PCI in late 486 systems.

I have a 486 VLB machine and I do not find it particularly difficult. I am careful to use the VLB bus as it was intended, solely for video purposes. Otherwise, every other expansion is on the ISA bus, especially IDE. The instability that comes from the VLB bus and hard disk drives is simply not worth the boost in speed, especially when using Compact Flash. I have the jumpers manual for my motherboard and cards, so configuration isn't too much of a hassle. Of course, it can be a bit of a pain in the butt for the jumpered cards when you have to open the case. Because the typical video card is rarely has jumpers you would want to change, it isn't any different from a generic 386/486 system.

On the low 8088-286 end, things have become much easier these days and you can build a working system provided you have the right parts. An XT-IDE board is essential for hard disk storage and 8-bit slots. Tandy 1000s tend to be fairly difficult with some of the proprietary interfaces and cards they use.

Most difficult can equal most fun or most frustrating. Depends on the outcome. 😀

I'm currently looking forward to my 50Mhz VLB project. That may not last.

I haven't ever build a 386, but I'd rate a 486 more difficult if only for the jumper hell (one of the 386 boards I have actually has the CPU soldered to the board).

It's difficult for me to create a list though. Before I actually start a new build I'll usually do my homework which kinda prevents maybe 90% of all potential hazards so most of my builds were relatively hassle free (even my own 486, and that was only the second rig I ever build and I didn't have the experience and know-how I have now).

I did find early Socket A difficult (to get to run stable mostly), I've worked with so many of those early ASUS SDRAM sA boards that at some point I knew exactly how to get those boards running stable (or at least usable 🤣), but these boards have like at least 10 spear traps waiting for any unexpecting victim to fall into 😜
This got better with later boards (they had switched to DDR by that time).

Super 7 was pretty easy compared to 486, even though those may be the second hardest systems to jumper. One just has to pay attention.

I do think that any 5v build like Athlon XP and Thunderbird will prove more difficult these days due to the trouble finding a suitable PSU.
Chances are good one will need to first find one such PSU and then be required to solder (I'm not even mentioning finding suitable replacement caps) before even starting with the build itself 🤣!
And there's those VIA SATA ports which have troubles with anything newer than SATA1 and of course things like PCI latency issues.

Most Intel stuff is easy, it's good for beginners and most of that stuff will usually "kinda just work" even though every type of motherboard and additional components will have its quirks.

One thing that can make a build problematic is the simply gigantic actual amount of potential choices one has for a build, there must be many thousands of possible combinations with many hundreds of those combinations having problems.

Proprietary computers are difficult at first as these are so different and a lot of trouble stems from the fact that these systems are so incompatible with almost all other hardware out there. One could even say that because choices are so limited by its proprietary nature that this is a factor that makes these builds easier.

They do seem very alien in some ways.

Perhaps I could write a little guide about this very interesting subject and put it on the wiki! 😁

AllUrBaseRBelong2Us wrote:

I think in general the older the system, the harder it gets. Hardware just seems more particular the further you go back.

I have a 486 VLB system with SCSI HDD and optical, but I've never been able to get the ISA soundcard to work (CT4520) in DOS or WFW, regardless of drivers and configurations tried. And I know the soundcard is good. If I move that soundcard to my Pentium Pro Windows 98 box, it works no problem. I've come to realize I really don't like messing with anything pre-Win98.

One issue with Socket 8 would be finding a good (or even suitable) CPU cooler, afaik no other CPU socket uses CPU coolers which are compatible with Socket 8.

EISA systems where you can't find the config files for the motherboard. Custom OEM systems where the maker went bust before the internet was a thing (little to no information or drivers).

I personally agree with the last thing about the SS7

Every time that I decide to put a SiS 6326 8M AGP video card. the goddamn thing never works (Does start from PCI cards but if I take it out and put the AGP one only, the board makes the beep code for no video u.u ), and to make matters worse, has a ALi chipset and the motherboard that the card was originally into also had a ALi chipset and same AGP connector but it was a Slot 1 motherboard and believe me, the card DOES work but for me is kind of a picky board because it chooses when it wants to work and when doesn't
The SS7 board has a Aladdin V while the Slot 1 motherboard has a M1621 (And the video card itself is period correct, is from 1998!!)

Also the jumper dilemma was also a great pain in the butt, it took me some minutes to determine the speed configuration of the CPU via those things and thanks to god that I have the 2 manuals for the exact same board (One is OEM, from Diamond and the other is the original manual from BCM)

Rodoko wrote:

I personally agree with the last thing about the SS7 […]
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I personally agree with the last thing about the SS7

Every time that I decide to put a SiS 6326 8M AGP video card. the goddamn thing never works (Does start from PCI cards but if I take it out and put the AGP one only, the board makes the beep code for no video u.u ), and to make matters worse, has a ALi chipset and the motherboard that the card was originally into also had a ALi chipset and same AGP connector but it was a Slot 1 motherboard and believe me, the card DOES work but for me is kind of a picky board because it chooses when it wants to work and when doesn't
The SS7 board has a Aladdin V while the Slot 1 motherboard has a M1621 (And the video card itself is period correct, is from 1998!!)

Also the jumper dilemma was also a great pain in the butt, it took me some minutes to determine the speed configuration of the CPU via those things and thanks to god that I have the 2 manuals for the exact same board (One is OEM, from Diamond and the other is the original manual from BCM)

I think the sis agp cards aren't a very good choice anyway. For trouble free agp operation on a ss7 (ali V or via mvp3) pick a voodoo or matrox. I had zero problems wth those. Nvidia cards can also work fine but some of them can also give huge problems on these chipsets, depends on card and motherboard (a bit of trial and error).

OT: i believe you are absolutely right and the 486 can be a lot of fun but also a lot of hassle.

Personally I'd rate most early 440 chipset boards right under super socket 7 boards because of how picky most are. For example: - my compaq deskpro 1000 is very picky about ram and AGP video cards. Some cause BSODS (geforce 2, geforce 3ti) others don't work at all (some voodoo 3 cards, my TNT2 pro, etc). Another example is my Abit BE6-II - BSODs in win98 with GF4 titanium cards if chipset drivers are installed. In XP it will sometimes work, other times freeze at the login screen. It's also picky about ram. Only one of my 7 256mb modules runs on it, and less then half of my 128mb sticks. The compaq only works with hyundai / hyinx and samsung modules.

In contrast my MVP3 based A-open AX59 PRO just works and it's easy to set up. It works will all my ram, and I can safely install via 4in1 4.43 with forceware 4x.xx and it's trouble free. Same for my Soyo SY-6BA+ - intel 440BX, takes almost any ram and AGP video cards I put in it. No lockups, no bsods, no drama whatsoever.

vetz wrote:

1. 486 VLB systems - A jumper hell. VLB is twitchy on a good day, and if you want to add SCSI into the mix, then good luck getting that build 100% stable with a CPU that has write-back. Compatibility issues are often found between expansion cards, motherboards and CPU/RAM and you'll have to navigate between PNP and non-PNP devices

This^10000. My VLB 486 build is still a work in progress, I can't get both VLB VGA & IDE to play nice with each other so I gotta keep playing the hardware roulette. Both older and newer stuff is much more straightforward IMO.

Tetrium wrote:

Before I actually start a new build I'll usually do my homework which kinda prevents maybe 90% of all potential hazards so most of my builds were relatively hassle free (even my own 486, and that was only the second rig I ever build and I didn't have the experience and know-how I have now).

The problem with 486 is that even if you do your homework you might run into problems simply because the parts have their own life at times. Especially if you're going to do alot of hardware swapping (for benchmarking or testing what works best) you'll really discover what problems are possible with your systems. I'm currently working on finding the best storage controller solution for 486 VLB boards, and it's a PITA to get everything running properly. For instance, if you install a EIDE or IDE cache VLB controller you can't use the LBA setting in the motherboard BIOS if you use a larger than 504MB disk on the ASUS VL/I-486SV2GX4. If you do, Windows locks up. You need to set it to "Normal". I can't remember reading that anywhere else.

My vote goes to 486 VLB era systems. Numerous jumpers aren’t a big deal if you can find the relevant documentation, which is usually possible, but there’s always at least one head scratching gotcha before the thing is up and running. Of all my systems, the 486 has given me the most to think about with regard to what IO / VGA cards to use – I guess VLB just fell uncomfortably between the ISA and PCI eras. It’s an infuriating yet lovable hack job.

I should have said treat VLB like AGP, one slot for graphics only, overclock (>33MHz) at your peril.

vetz wrote:

Tetrium wrote:

Before I actually start a new build I'll usually do my homework which kinda prevents maybe 90% of all potential hazards so most of my builds were relatively hassle free (even my own 486, and that was only the second rig I ever build and I didn't have the experience and know-how I have now).

The problem with 486 is that even if you do your homework you might run into problems simply because the parts have their own life at times. Especially if you're going to do alot of hardware swapping (for benchmarking or testing what works best) you'll really discover what problems are possible with your systems. I'm currently working on finding the best storage controller solution for 486 VLB boards, and it's a PITA to get everything running properly. For instance, if you install a EIDE or IDE cache VLB controller you can't use the LBA setting in the motherboard BIOS if you use a larger than 504MB disk on the ASUS VL/I-486SV2GX4. If you do, Windows locks up. You need to set it to "Normal". I can't remember reading that anywhere else.

My 486 was a 486 PCI build, it's a different kind of animal so imo I can't judge V:B to be easy or hard since I never actually build a rig around a VLB board. Still should give a VLB rig a try. I did test a couple of my VLB components years ago I think (good chance I only had 1 VLB board back then and I never had a lot of VLB components anyway) but for several reasons things took a different turn and I build a lot of other systems instead (more than 20 in total).

I agree with you completely that the older this hardware gets, the more their age starts to make things more difficult and the approach to how to build such a rig slowly changes in time. I've noticed these days retro rigs are increasingly about repairs while 5 years ago it was more about figuring out what was out there and discovering new things (like undocumented jumper settings and lots of other interesting stuff).

Early Slot 1 boards were known to have issues even when it was new. Perhaps I was just lucky in having used newer P6 boards (my only LX board was s370 and it didn't even have AGP to give me any problems 😜).

edit:

Great Hierophant wrote:

I should have said treat VLB like AGP, one slot for graphics only, overclock (>33MHz) at your peril.

Are those VLB harddrive controllers so hard to use btw? If I were to actually build one, my gripe would be that I don't have any good ISA controller cards and I also don't have any good VLB graphics adapters. I do have a ISA cl5434 and a couple VLB controllers with 2 IDE connectors (I don't have anything fancy for VLB though)

Great Hierophant wrote:

I should have said treat VLB like AGP, one slot for graphics only, overclock (>33MHz) at your peril.

That is wise words. You'll loose out on some storage speed by going with ISA, but if you have a modern drive the system will still be miles better than what was available back in the 90s.

Early Slot 1 boards were known to have issues even when it was new. Perhaps I was just lucky in having used newer P6 boards (my only LX board was s370 and it didn't even have AGP to give me any problems 😜).

Heh, funny you should mention that. I just bought a ASUS KN97-X, which is a PCI only Slot 1 board, and was one of the first Pentium II boards on the marked during spring 1997. Looking forward to testing it out 😀

Are those VLB harddrive controllers so hard to use btw? If I were to actually build one, my gripe would be that I don't have any good ISA controller cards and I also don't have any good VLB graphics adapters. I do have a ISA cl5434 and a couple VLB controllers with 2 IDE connectors (I don't have anything fancy for VLB though)

Depends on the motherboard and what kind of controller (if it supports LBA/EIDE and/or use the BIOS on the motherboard/have it's own). If it's an old motherboard and old controller you need to use Overlay software if you want to go beyond 504MB. If you have a newer motherboard, but older controller you'd want to use the motherboard BIOS for setup (and LBA support) which needs configuration. It's generally easy to get them going in DOS, but if you want to boot up WIn 3.11 or Windows 9x, then you might run into problems if you want to enable the full performance. For example in Windows 3.X you need a thirdparty driver to enable 32bit disk access if the disk is larger than 504MB. There are several drivers, and some might not with your card and/or drive.

Used to like the challenge of ISA setups - I generally used a "cheat sheet" with a table of resources available, used, preferred and possible - had to run a SoundBlaster with DMA 0, as a scanner card needed 1 and something else took 3, with the SB being to only device that had the option of 0

My cheat sheet listed fixed resource devices first, then in order of increasing options - saved me an awful lot of fiddling afterwards