VOGONS


First post, by Totempole

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I recently found out that there's an S3D enhanced version of one of my favourite games, Havoc.

My question is, does if the S3 cards cards I have (listed below) would be capable of running these S3D enhanced games?

1. 2MB S3 ViRGE DX PCI (Would this be adequate, or will I need to find modules to upgrade it to 4MB?)
2. 4MB S3 Trio3D Onboard AGP (I read somewere that this card is actually a variant of an S3 ViRGE?)

A follow up question, if I need to upgrade the RAM on my PCI ViRGE, could I use expansion modules from S3 Trio64 Cards? I may have 2x 512K modules I could use. Also, is it possible to have a 3MB ViRGE, or do I need to occupy all expansion slots?

Thanks.

My Retro Gaming PC:
Pentium III 450MHz Katmai Slot 1
Transcend 256MB PC133
Gigabyte GA-6BXC
MSI Geforce 2 MX400 AGP
Ensoniq ES1371 PCI
Sound Blaster AWE64 ISA

Reply 1 of 14, by F2bnp

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I think Trio3D doesn't work with most games. The fastest card you can get is the GX2, which I also think can be somewhat incompatible with some games. Havoc will probably work really nicely on that Virge DX you have, I doubt RAM would make the slightest difference on this card. The greatest issue might be finding the S3D version of Havoc.

You could message Vetz about it, he made a video on the game.

Reply 2 of 14, by Putas

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I don't know Havoc, but S3d games usually had 2 MB cards in mind and adding memory does not help anything. Frame rates are low, so overclocking can be crucial- and DX are in general great in that, depends how fast memory they have. I say try both cards and let us know how it was.

Reply 3 of 14, by Totempole

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Thanks to both of you for your replies.

Will give it a try when I get a chance and follow up here. It's only Havoc I'm really interested in playing, since I really enjoyed that game.

I figure that the S3 ViRGE will also have better overall compatibility with most DOS games than the Trio3D too given that it's PCI. I as going to use a Trio64V+ before I heard about Havoc and S3D. 😀

My Retro Gaming PC:
Pentium III 450MHz Katmai Slot 1
Transcend 256MB PC133
Gigabyte GA-6BXC
MSI Geforce 2 MX400 AGP
Ensoniq ES1371 PCI
Sound Blaster AWE64 ISA

Reply 4 of 14, by x86++

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3D accelerated games are listed here (non-3dfx):
3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)

And the S3D list of games is under the subheading: S3 Virge (S3D)

And the green color text under that S3D heading: indicates S3D specific (accelerated) games.

Reply 5 of 14, by idspispopd

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- In DOS you might need to use the S3D Toolkit Patcher (s3dsrvr/s3drun) if you want to use anything later than a Virge/325 or Virge/VX, but in Windows you should be fine.
- A Virge/DX should be very compatible, a Trio3D reportedly would not work, but if it's not too much trouble you should give it a try. If it works it should be faster than the DX.
- 2MB vs 4MB would only matter for higher resolutions. At 320x200 2MB should be fine, at 640x480 I'd prefer 4MB. I don't know which resolution the 3D accelerated uses.
- Memory speed might matter more. Can you see what speed grade the memory chips are? -35 would mean 35ns which would be quite fast for a Virge/DX, -60 is on the slower side.
- Regarding transferring memory chips: I don't think 3MB would work. Also you'd have to check if the chips are EDO and not FPM (Virge only supports EDO, Trio64 supports EDO or FPM.), and if they are fast enough (ie. preferably not slower than the chips already on the card, although that depends on the actual timings set by the card's BIOS).

Reply 6 of 14, by vetz

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As said earlier, Virge GX2 is the quickest Virge card there is and it works fine with all the Windows games and most DOS games (with s3drun) (Terminal Velocity is limited to DX). I believe Putas have said some S3D games do actually run on the Trio3D, but I've never tested this, nor heard any reports of compatibility.

Last edited by vetz on 2016-02-22, 13:56. Edited 1 time in total.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 8 of 14, by Totempole

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Thanks again for all the info. I think the most important game I want to run in S3D is Havoc. Destruction Derby in S3D looks quite good as well. Perhaps Whiplash as well, but I think it actually looks better in SVGA software mode than S3D.

@vetz - I'll certainly give my Trio3D a try when I get the chance.

My Retro Gaming PC:
Pentium III 450MHz Katmai Slot 1
Transcend 256MB PC133
Gigabyte GA-6BXC
MSI Geforce 2 MX400 AGP
Ensoniq ES1371 PCI
Sound Blaster AWE64 ISA

Reply 9 of 14, by vetz

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Totempole wrote:

Thanks again for all the info. I think the most important game I want to run in S3D is Havoc. Destruction Derby in S3D looks quite good as well. Perhaps Whiplash as well, but I think it actually looks better in SVGA software mode than S3D.

@vetz - I'll certainly give my Trio3D a try when I get the chance.

Keep in mind that the retail software release of Havoc have speed issues and displays an incorrect framerate in the youtube video I made. At that point I didn't realize it was running too quick, nor had a suitable system. The Havoc video is also captured on a S3 Virge DX, so I'd imagine you'd get better framerate on the GX2.

On a quick system, the framerate in software mode Destruction Derby will be better than with the S3D version, but it's not something you notice while playing (only side by side). I had very much fun with the S3D version, and I prefer the higher resolution.

Whiplash/Fatal Racing I see no point in playing on the S3 Virge. It looks horrible. Whiplash is best played in software SVGA mode on a quick system or using the Rendition Verite version. The 3DFX version have almost no UI when racing, which I find annoying.

All in all the S3D games are quite disappointing, either they look terrible or run terrible, or both. The only worthwhile S3D ports is Battle Race, Havoc and Destruction Derby. The other games I'd rather play in software mode or with other graphics cards.

Last edited by vetz on 2016-02-22, 15:17. Edited 1 time in total.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes

Reply 10 of 14, by matze79

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Anyone of you has a Hercules Terminator 3D/GLH 128 AGP Trio3D ?

51M7SN3gIUL._SX425_.jpg

The Video Bios tells me it has 8Megs, and the Operating System always reports 4Mb.
Is this a Driver issue, or just fake ?

it also does not run S3D Games, and Direct3D is a real mess..

Maybe the Original 325 runs all fine, but slow 😒

https://www.retrokits.de - blog, retro projects, hdd clicker, diy soundcards etc
https://www.retroianer.de - german retro computer board

Reply 11 of 14, by BigDaddyM

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I have a Hercules Terminator Trio 3D card. Different programs report different things. For example:

AIDA 32 says it's 8MB card, nothing more
AIDA 64 & Everest: 4 MB & 110/110 MHz for core/memory
Hercules Tools: 8MB & 78.75/109.77 MHz
Power Strip2: 4MB & 110 MHz for memory
Power Strip3: 83/110 MHz
SiSoft Sandra: 4MB

Maybe this card have only 4MB for windows/games and the rest od memory is for special applications only, just like 8MB VirgeVX.

As you see i have different readings about specs of this card. Do anyone have knowledge which one is correct? I believe in that what hercules utilities are showing but 79/110 MHz look a bit odd and Pstrip3 readings seems mor logical eg 83/110

Reply 12 of 14, by Totempole

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vetz wrote:
Totempole wrote:

Thanks again for all the info. I think the most important game I want to run in S3D is Havoc. Destruction Derby in S3D looks quite good as well. Perhaps Whiplash as well, but I think it actually looks better in SVGA software mode than S3D.

@vetz - I'll certainly give my Trio3D a try when I get the chance.

Keep in mind that the retail software release of Havoc have speed issues and displays an incorrect framerate in the youtube video I made. At that point I didn't realize it was running too quick, nor had a suitable system. The Havoc video is also captured on a S3 Virge DX, so I'd imagine you'd get better framerate on the GX2.

Thanks, I'm aware of the speed issues with Havoc. It works best on a 133-200MHz CPU in the standard software mode due to lack of any framerate limitation. It's fairly easy to throttle a P3 450 to work at about that level as well.

I'll see how it goes on my ViRGE DX when I can.

My Retro Gaming PC:
Pentium III 450MHz Katmai Slot 1
Transcend 256MB PC133
Gigabyte GA-6BXC
MSI Geforce 2 MX400 AGP
Ensoniq ES1371 PCI
Sound Blaster AWE64 ISA

Reply 13 of 14, by rxr

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Hi everyone. I have the problem that this s3d patcher does not work for me. E.g. it crashes with the 0d or 0e exception. Now I realized when I start the s3dsrvr it prints out the banner, but when I compare mem before and after it does not appear to consume any memory, e.g. not TSR? Does someone who got it running has more how-to and tips? I got a /DX, but I found pcem does support emulation so I double check it with the emulation, and it behaves exactly the same as on my real /DX, ...?!?!? PS: for what it's worth I mainly try this with descent2, mostly to see how much faster the /DX woudl have been compared to the original Virge I had back when it was new 😉 PPS: I try this with regular MS-DOS 6.22 or so, maybe this s3dsrvr patcher only works from a Windows 95 DOS shell? 😒 so frustrating, ..!

Reply 14 of 14, by Joosemachine

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Hi all, I am new here and have been lurking on this site for a while. Its really great that such a site exists and is still serving Retro/vintage gaming enthusiasts such as myself! I have been trying to locate some of the S3d exclusive games to test on my Diamond Stealth 3d 3000, and while I have located some of them, others seem to be eluding me.. Particularly Destruction Derby, Fatal Racing(Wipeout) and Whiplash 3d. I have looked everywhere for an image of these discs but none seem to exist. Even the Internet Archive which has the normal versions of these games amongst its software library doesnt have the special versions for the S3 Virge. I hope I am not breaking any rules in asking this, but since this software is more than 25 years old at this point and should be freely available anyway, does anyone know of a source for these game images? I know Vetz/RetroCompaqGuy did a bunch of videos on these games about 7-8 years ago so I presume he had the discs, but I'm not sure if he is still active on these forums.. If someone could possible point me in the right direction for these images I would be very grateful, thanks!