I have a 8820 and changing modes does not happen immediately, it takes a couple of seconds.

You can press the map button any time you like but by doing that the module does an internal reset and loses all the extra data/parameters the midi sends before/during playback so most of the times you will get wrong sounding stuff after you mess with the maps.

So it's best to select your desired map before playback and not messing with it until the end.

A couple of seconds and then what? The sound changes to what?
Okay, so when you select a different Map during a song the SC unit resets and all instruments are back to sounding like a piano (what is wrong sounding)?
A reset will put all instrument back to Piano, is that what you hearing when selecting a different map while playing?

What about Doom (GM)?
When entering Doom does the unit retains the sound Map of what you set while not in GM mode?
What about changing the sound Map while in Doom (GM mode)?

Thanks BTW, the more info the better.

What exactly are you trying to find out?
I can't explain further if you don't understand what a reset during playback sounds like. No - instruments do not changed to pianos, what happens is that all their parameters are lost from the reset and the result is playback with instruments at default settings. Things just sound wrong. I imagine the same thing happens to any game - DOOM included - if you introduce a reset during playback.
The unit's map stays until you press the map button or you power-cycle it.

keropi wrote:

What exactly are you trying to find out?
The unit's map stays until you press the map button or you power-cycle it.

Thanks keropi.
I'm in the middle of explaining to Roland several bugs in Sound Canvas VA plugin.
Without owning a real hardware unit I can only ask for help on this board to understand more and report correctly to Roland.

Things just sound wrong.
What happens is that all their parameters are lost from the reset and the result is playback with instruments at default settings.

What are the default settings for 8820, what do you hear?
When I hit reset in SC-VA during playback I still hear the music but all instruments turn to piano (Default).
When I reset SC-VA all instruments turn to default Bank 0 Instrument 1, Piano 1.

I specifically ask about Doom because it calls for General Midi (GM On SysEx command) and I would like to know whether the Map sound remain after the change to GM.

well, for example instead of hearing a flute with vibrato/reverb parameters you get the flute with these parameters reverted to 0. Do this in all instruments and you get something that resembles the original score but completely dry/out-of-tune. I also believe drum kit selection reverts back to the unit's default one.
Get a midi, remove all customization and play it - that's what you get.

The hardware map-button is not affected from GS/GM resets, once you set it to a mode you can send reset SysExes till the end of time, the map won't change.

Keep in mind that all these happen with the 8820 , I don't have experience with any of the other units in the title.

Thank you,
One last thing, what about changing Maps while already in GM mode, Can you test that?
Will a new map take place after you restart the song in GM mode?

What do you mean by "while already in GM mode" ?
Take DOOM for example. You enter and begin to play in 8820 mode. You realize you want to hear it in SC-55 mode so you change the map. Current midi will sound dreadful but the next song will sound exactly as it was meant in SC-55 mode. So you only "lose" the current playing song, once a new one loads then you are set.

Thank you, exactly what I wanted to hear.

Any sound canvas default module mode is GS.
Doom calls via SysEx message to change from GS to GM1, and I was wondering if only GS allows for Map changes.
From your answer I now understand that Map changes in GM mode is allowed and working well.

Glad this was what you were looking for... when I got the 8820 I did play lots with the map button under dos , wanted to hear how games would sound in other non-55 modes 🤣
I also found that the map button only affect the unit's PART-A input, so for example SC-55 stuff should be played from PART-A in SC-55 map. If you try and play them from PART-B the map won't work and you'll always get the 8820 native mode playback. I don't know if this is relevant to other units or software though.

That's strange. I have an SC-88VL, and it actually just swaps between the two instrument maps immediately with no reset or weirdness. E.g. in DOOM 1 E2M1, the cymbal sound is noticeably longer in the SC88 map, and I can switch back and forth hearing one or the other immediately. E1M1 is also quite different too.

In general though, the SC88 map doesn't sound THAT different from SC55, so sometimes I'm hard pressed to tell the difference depending on what instruments are in use.

Interesting but no surprising really, the 2 units are just from different time eras 😀

keropi wrote:

Interesting but no surprising really, the 2 units are just from different time eras 😀

What do you mean?

Anyway, I'll be doing some testing of my own soon. I have a SC-88VL on the way from Japan. 😀

I mean that the sc-88vl is basically a 1994 sc-88 and the sc-8820 is a 1999 device - so lots of things can change in 5 years and it's no surprise the units behave differently when you change maps. 😉

Thank you all for testing,

Actually, the manual for 88, 88VL, 88Pro, 8820 and VA state the following:

Bank Select (Controller number 0, 32): * Bank Select processing will be suspended until a Program Change message is received. * […]
Show full quote

Bank Select (Controller number 0, 32):
* Bank Select processing will be suspended until a Program Change message is received.
* The Sound Canvas VA recognizes the Bank Select LSB (Controller number 32) as a flag for
switching between the SC-55MAP, the SC-88MAP, the SC-88ProMAP, and the SC-8820MAP. With
a Bank Select LSB of 00H, the map selected by the front panel INST MAP button will be selected.
With an LSB of 01H, the SC-55MAP and with an LSB of 02H, the SC-88MAP, and with an LSB of
03H, the SC-88Pro MAP, and with an LSB of 04H, the SC-8820MAP will be selected respectively.

So when a patch is changed without CC#0 or CC#32 (like in General Midi mode), the unit assumes CC#0=0 and CC#32=0 (from front panel).
I also tested this with Midi-OX; When I send MSB (CC#0) without CC#32, Sound Canvas VA will use the Map Mode I have selected on the "front panel" (options) and also change to the correct Bank with GS instrument.

If I understand correctly, the sound canvas (any of them) reads CC#32 (front panel or midi message) only when called for a patch change.
So it sounds quite strange that the 88VL changes to the correct sounds immediately...

zerker wrote:

In general though, the SC88 map doesn't sound THAT different from SC55, so sometimes I'm hard pressed to tell the difference depending on what instruments are in use.

What do you mean "doesn't sound THAT different"?
Listen to Doom E1M1 guitar sound when you change maps, they sound VERY different between 88 and 55.
Can you please test and report?

Anyone with 88 or 88Pro care to help with a quick test?

8850 owner reporting here. From my experience much of the 8820's behaviour, as mentioned above, is also true for this module - possible delays in fully switching (especially when switching every channel at once whilst a MIDI is playing), the lack of need to wait for a patch change command unlike SC-VA, and flexiblity in GM1 and GS resets (have not tested GM2, and XG and model-specific reset messages will force a mode change) all apply.

There are a few caveats with this module:
- INST MAP only changes the map for the currently selected channel; to force the entire module (or at least one of the four parts; I need to test this further), one has to select all parts first (a matter of pressing two buttons), causing "SOUND Canvas" to display on the LCD; afterwards, pressing INST MAP will force a number of channels to the selected mode.
- Using INST MAP globally definitely results in parameter resets; for individual instruments, however...I am not entirely certain and will need to test this more (especially with the use of 88Pro/8850 EFX).
- As always, the 8850 has its dubious compatibility with the rest of the SC line. IMO it is serviceable for SC-55 stuff (despite notable differences versus my 55ST); for 88 and 88Pro material, however, a good 88Pro-owning contact of mine discourages the 8850 greatly.

These are all from prior experiences, though, and I'll be verifying these claims in a bit, when I have the time.

James-F wrote:

Anyone with 88 or 88Pro care to help with a quick test?

I wish I still had my 88pro. From what I remember the sound would change instantly when I switched maps during a song, but it would be best if someone with an actual unit could confirm this 😀

With my Roland SC-88, I can select an instrument or all of them, and press the SC-55 map and it changes immediately.

In fact, I actually use this to my advantage for games like Descent with general midi. I like how some instruments sound in SC-88 and some in SC-55 map. So I just configure to my liking. 😀

James-F wrote:

What do you mean "doesn't sound THAT different"?
Listen to Doom E1M1 guitar sound when you change maps, they sound VERY different between 88 and 55.
Can you please test and report?

I already said E1M1 was one of the cases that DOES sound different. But a large number of instruments DO sound similar. E3M1 and E4M1 in Doom are quite close between SC88 and SC55. Doom 2 Map02 is pretty close as well. And so on.