VOGONS


First post, by Rhuwyn

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All,

I've been seeing threads of how much people love their Roland or other MIDI devices. I love MIDI music from old games but have never owned an external midi device myself. What i've heard in person is strictly what comes directly from the sound cards.

I've been curious about getting one for some time now but really don't know anything about them. I've been holding off on posting this because I figured I could just google it, but everything I find about midi is either on the professional side on composiing your own midi/FMsyth stuff or justcordings on how particularly music sounds on partiular midi devices.

Can anyone point me in the right direction as far as what I need to look at to build this out properly? Also, interested in how many people think they are truely needed or not.

Reply 1 of 16, by firage

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As to whether they're needed or not, just go on Youtube and decide for yourself.

Here's a huge comparison of Doom's opening level music with different cards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXFYWJ7dbz0
Yamaha's DB50XG/DB60XG and especially Roland Sound Canvas stuff is practically de facto General MIDI.

Before General MIDI there was Roland LA - MT-32/CM-32L/LAPC-I. The music options in that era were typically that and Adlib (or just one or the other):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-uAf_xMQSQ

Last edited by firage on 2016-05-29, 23:12. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 2 of 16, by gdjacobs

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What will be your focus? Game sound and music or MIDI synth technology? What's your price bracket?

All hail the Great Capacitor Brand Finder

Reply 5 of 16, by DX7_EP

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As someone who likes sound modules and vintage synths quite a bit, I do enjoy having them around for both games and musical tinkering, so I heartily support the endeavour. Before you delve into this, however, I recommend figuring out specific games you wish to savour the MIDI music options on. That way we can better determine ideal options.

For western DOS and GM Win9x games, and assuming sound modules are the preferred form factor, I would recommend a two-module configuration:
(1) Games with MT-32 soundtracks (1987-~1993): Roland MT-32 (Old) and/or CM-32L
(2) Games with GM soundtracks (~1993 and later): Any of the following:
- Roland SC-55 (any model including mkIIs, STs, 50s, etc.)
- Roland SC-88 (or compatible)
- Yamaha MU50
- Yamaha MU80
- Dreamblaster S1 + DreamFace S1 (if using it as an external module)

Ýou will also need a way to connect the system to the device(s). On a vintage system, gameport - MIDI cables (combined with a good sound card) are the typical option, combined with a MPU-401 or SoftMPU as needed. If using DOSBox, by contrast, USB-MIDI adapaters are more popular. Then, the audio is often mixed into the sound card's line-in, or combined with the computer's audio output in either the module's inputs or a separate mixer.

I'll also elaborate on the various standards and modules a little more, in regards to their gaming importance. Apologies if this seems a bit excessive info-wise.

Roland LA: (I recommend referring to Phil's excellent MT-32 guide as well)
MT-32 Old: Recommended for early MT-32 games that expect the 40ms message delay this version requires.
MT-32 New: Headphone jack included. Vibrato is notably faster, so this is not a popular choice.
CM-32L: Recommended for MT-32 games that also employ the added SFX this module has - which are quite a number of them.
CM-32P: PCM only; don't bother.
CM-64: The added PCM channels don't do much in DOS gaming, if anything at all. But for Japanese vintage computer gaming, having one is useful!
CM-500: See CM-64 above, SC-55 below, and also add the fast vibrato of the newer MT-32.

General MIDI Level 1:
There are tons of modules, sound cards, daughterboards, etc. that will support the standard, but the implementation will vary considerably.

A popular, recent, and quite affordable option is the Dreamblaster S1 daughterboard (link to Phil's review); I can't really comment further on it as I don't have one.

Roland GS:
SC-55 (non-mkII): Sounds great, and de facto standard. Some versions are not GM-compatible technically.
SC-55mkII: Incremental update to SC-55 with GM support. Going by my 55ST (basically a mkII minus screen and controls, meant for PC games more than music composition), the patches balance and complement each other very well, and given the broad support for the module, this is an excellent choice for GM and GS titles.
SC-88: Considerably more polyphony and a mostly-compatible SC-55 instrument bank option make the 88 a great choice as well. Quite a few MIDI games will like the extra legroom - less note cutoff is usually good.
SC-88Pro and anything higher: I can name Japanese titles that use the 88Pro's capabilities, such as some of the older Windows Touhou games, but I am not aware of any western ones.

Yamaha XG:
I don't recall many games - especially western ones - whose soundtracks are designed with XG support explicitly in mind. That being said, XG-compatible daughterboards and sound modules are also popular, readily available choices.

Many of the Yamaha modules and other devices are able to emulate GS (often called TG-300B mode on the MU line) or have it implemented. It is quite serviceable, but Yamaha uses different samples as well. Whichever sounds better is left to subjective hearing and opinions.

CM-64, FB-01, SC-55ST, SC-8850, SD-20

Reply 6 of 16, by rgart

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Your in for a treat if you haven't played games with a Roland MIDI device before!

A Roland external midi module is a must, but what games are you / do you want to play? You often cant mix and match. Games that are Roland Sound Canvas/General midi based often sound HORRIBLE on a Roland MT-32 and vice versa. Of course there are exceptions like Lands of Lore which sounds great on both units.

The Roland MT-32 is for older games like EGA/VGA/Sierra titles: Conquest of Camelot, Leisure Suit Larry, Quest for Glory, Police Quest, Rex Nebular, Ultima 6, Ultima 7 etc. (1989 - 1993ish)

Roland SC-55 for newer games like Doom/Doom II/Hexen/Heretic/Warcraft 2/Ultima 8 (1993 - 1998)

I prefer the Roland MT-32 sound for those heavy drums that sound amazing!

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Reply 7 of 16, by carlostex

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If you're just interest in:

Games and nothing more: Get a first generation SC-55.

Games and MIDI music: Get an SC-55 and a Yamaha MU-50/80/100.

Just MIDI music/production: Get a Yamaha MU-50/80/100. If you have a lot of cash get an SC-88 too.

Games and MIDI music (tight budget and space): Get a Yamaha MU-10/15. If you find a Roland SC-7 for 5 bucks get it too.

EDIT: Nevermind, my recommendation above is just General MIDI.

Reply 8 of 16, by carlostex

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DX7_EP wrote:

MT-32 New: Headphone jack included. Vibrato is notably faster, so this is not a popular choice.

The MT-32 New is a second generation LA synth. It does not have the fast vibrato. Only the 3rd generation Roland CM32LN and CM500 have that bug.

Reply 9 of 16, by James-F

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If you don't care being 100% authentic you can use Midi to USB adapter, a laptop, with SoundFonts, MUNT, or VST plugins (all free) as a midi module with your retro PC.
Start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvuncHhza5A
Roland Sound Canvas VA VSTi costs 125$ but you get all sound canvas units together.
MUNT, practically perfect MT-32 emulator.
SoundFonts are free and you can get the SCC-1 soundfont which is as close as you get to a sc-55 for free.

If you want only hardware, most of it already suggested, but it'll cost you some money.
The cheapest but excellent sounding 100% hardware variation is an ISA audio card (with original OPL3) with DreamBlaster S1.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ISA-16bit-Sound-Card- … s-/201585222282
http://www.serdashop.com/waveblaster
I use this combination myself for complete 100% authentic dos General Midi experience.
Also, you can't go wrong with a SC-55 (around 60$ without shipping from ebay), they are almost gone, better snatch one fast.


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Reply 12 of 16, by DX7_EP

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carlostex wrote:

The MT-32 New is a second generation LA synth. It does not have the fast vibrato. Only the 3rd generation Roland CM32LN and CM500 have that bug.

Ah, that is what I get for responding at a late time. I stand corrected, thanks!

James-F wrote:

Yes but the ones from Japan sell for around 60$ while the ones from US sell for 300$.

The JP units also tend to cost a ton in shipping (on eBay) or may not may not ship abroad at all (on Yahoo JP auctions).

The ones I have are all sourced from North American sellers, and total prices for those tend to go cheaper in my experience (especially for auctions). Patience is key to getting the right devices at good prices.

CM-64, FB-01, SC-55ST, SC-8850, SD-20

Reply 13 of 16, by Rhuwyn

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First of all thank you everyone who has taken the time to reply so far.

So far I don't think i've seen a game listed that I am not interested in playing.

Doom, Heritic, Hexen, Warcraft1/2, Commander Keen Series , Ultima Series, Wing Commander Series, Money Island Series, Duke, Rise of the Triadd, Blood, Rapter, Descent, Kings Quest Series, Wacky Wheels, Sim City, SimAnt, Lost Vikings,Daggerfall, Loom, Red Baron, Anything else my Lucasarts, Terminal Velocty....and that is just what I can think of off the top of my head.

Regarding the general midi daughterboard. Will the Dreamblaster or other daughterboard work in any card that has the proper header?

Reply 15 of 16, by James-F

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Make sure you have a card that doesn't have the "hanging note bug", some creative sound blasters known for that.
You'd be happy with the Dreamblaster for GM for sure.


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Reply 16 of 16, by Rhuwyn

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James-F wrote:

Make sure you have a card that doesn't have the "hanging note bug", some creative sound blasters known for that.
You'd be happy with the Dreamblaster for GM for sure.

Ok I might just start there and see where it goes. Thanks everyone.