The YMF has no lowpass filter as all other sound blaster cards so the low sampling rate PCM sounds shrill and buzzy, this is not how DOS games should sound, lowpass filter is essential for low sampling rates to sound good.
The Sound Blaster actually changes its lowpass filter according to the output sampling rate of the game.
For some reason the YMF719 mixer is buggy and games can't adjust it, for example Wolfenstein 3D.
It also lacks 8-bit to 3-bit and 2-bit ADPCM capabilities.

The SB16 PCM audio just sounds better to me.
When the CT2230/CT2890 arrive the YMF719 will be there for the MPU-401 Wavetable port looped back to the Line-in, and SBPro when needed.

James-F wrote:

@Jepael To confirm the theory that all FM data that goes into I/O Base+8 routed automatically to 388 I need you expertise. Can y […]
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@Jepael
To confirm the theory that all FM data that goes into I/O Base+8 routed automatically to 388 I need you expertise.
Can you write a tiny program that sends a FM tone to Base+8 to test this, similar to the opl440.com we already have?

EDIT:
Warcraft 2 setup.exe with the old SB choice confirms that 220+8 will not automatically send to 388, do we need further confirmation?
Can I assume most older games send both to Base+8 and 388 as a safety measure, or just to 388?

Yes the OPL440.COM only writes to 388h/389h. I can change the port to something else if you want, like 228h/229h.

But saying that write to 2x8h goes to 3x8h does not make sense, nor games writing to both ports just as a safety measure.

If you have two SB cards, one at baseport 220h and one at baseport 240h, the other card will decode FM port 228h to its OPL chip, and the other card will decode FM port 248h to its OPL chip. So writing to 228h will only go to one card, and 248h will only go to the other card.
But because both cards decode 388h FM baseport, if a game writes to 388h address, both OPL chips on both SB cards get the same write.

There is a problem though, because two cards are at the 388h address, and thus reading the OPL status port will make both OPL chips to drive their status to ISA bus. Most likely there is some glue logic in between but still. What if a game has a timer running on the 228h card and it triggers status port bits to go high, and the 248h card does not have timers running and status port bits are low. Well, with TTL logic chips, the logic low level is stronger than logic high level. So maybe OPL chip detect routines fail to detect the OPL chip.

My solution to the problem was to use CT2230s + dedicated MPU. I like the 2230 because it's not a PnP card and it has a real OPL3 (integrated in the chip with the OPL logo). I just configure the SB16-MPU at port 300 and leave the dedicated MPU at 330/IRQ2.
I have not made any SnR tests though but I am really satisfied with how the cards sound and the fact that are not plagued with bugs that compatible cards have (ie the door sfx in Wolf3D, on my crystal/ess cards the sfx just cuts off).

Here's the 228h and 248h versions of OPL440.COM. Tested both baseports under DosBox.

I am sorry if my modifications offends anyone's copyright or something, I don't know who made the original and under what licence.

Jepael wrote:

Yes the OPL440.COM only writes to 388h/389h. I can change the port to something else if you want, like 228h/229h.

Yes please, we have to make sure.

Jepael wrote:

But saying that write to 2x8h goes to 3x8h does not make sense, nor games writing to both ports just as a safety measure.

I have the SB16 port 388 completely disabled, so there is no conflict with the YMF.
Still, games will sound from the YMF 388.

keropi wrote:

My solution to the problem was to use CT2230s + dedicated MPU.

This is probably what I'm going to do, but maybe with the CT2890 (having the YMF262) because it is full PnP and quieter.
I need to switch between the YMF and SB16 on the fly including the 220 I/O which requires full PnP.
I am going to post SNR readings of all 3 SB16 cards I have.

Thanks Jepael!
Off to test it, BRB with results.
* The original opl440.com was made right here on Vogons by member like you to test things like this. 😀

Results:
Yep, 248 plays on the YMF card which is on 240, and 228 plays on the SB16 which is on 220.
Port 2x8 is NOT tied to 388 internally.
That means practically all older games will send to 388 even if SB selected in their setup.

Of course it leaves non-working possibilities for this pairing of the SB16 with other cards with functional FM.
But these games are rare and programmed specifically for the SB on 2x8h without having the option to choose any other type of sound card.
Very rare indeed.

James you will go full circle and end up getting a proper MPU interface 😀

For me this works best, AWE64 Gold with a MPU interface. I don't miss OPL3 but really like the effects (chorus, reverb, 3D Stereo Expansion), but this is highly individual of course 😀

I invested too much time and money too call it quits on the OPL3, no way. 🤣
I WILL find the perfect combination with everything working and sounding beautiful in all games I have! 😎
For now a SB16 (with a proper OPL3) and a YMF719 will do.

As for effects, I am purist so no effects for me please, the audio from the retro PC is going into a firewire studio audio interface and into a pair of professional studio monitors (speakers), so I am very critical about sound abnormalities.

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

James you will go full circle and end up getting a proper MPU interface 😀

Ha yes that's what I did on my long search for a MIDI / opl3 / SB solution and I'm sure countless others here have too. It's a personal thing - I had a PAS16 + OPLSAx setup that worked pretty well but the config file hacks grossed me out after a while.

For the last couple of years I've settled on a CT2290 (equivalent to a CT2230) + an NEC XR385, alongside a Roland SCC1 and CT1920 (Goldfinch). Lots of MIDI options and a great SB16 with Opl3 with AWE and soundfonts thrown in for fun.

keropi wrote:

My solution to the problem was to use CT2230s + dedicated MPU.

Likewise but with an SB Pro2.

I think SB16's are a bit overrated, what they DO have going for them is being cheap and abundant.

SB16 cards are variable in quality, but they can be quite good.

The SCC-1 looks like a really handy card! Nobody leaves that sort of thing lying around in my neck of the woods.

keropi wrote:

My solution to the problem was to use CT2230s + dedicated MPU.

badmojo wrote:

For the last couple of years I've settled on a CT2290 (equivalent to a CT2230) + an NEC XR385,

SquallStrife wrote:

Likewise but with an SB Pro2.

I see a pattern here, and this is exactly what I'm going to do.

SquallStrife wrote:

I think SB16's are a bit overrated, what they DO have going for them is being cheap and abundant.

This I don't agree with.
The sought after ones are not cheap nor abundant.

I found only one game that doesn't work (freeze) without a SBPro, Archon Ultra, that's where the YMF719 comes useful besides its MPU-401.
All other games don't complain with the SB16 nor I encountered a game that has stereo ONLY with the SBPro.
Actually, searching the Vogons forums for a game that uses the SBPro stereo algorithm exclusively without the option to choose SB16 ... there are NONE.

Though that may be the case, what games have 16-bit samples that don't also have superior GM soundtracks (reducing the importance of genuine OPL)?

I'm not saying all SB16's are bad, I own quite a few myself!! Just that the only reason I can see to prefer one over an SB Pro2 for a pure DOS rig is price and availability (compared to the Pro2, I didn't mean to imply that some SB16s aren't "rarer" than others!)

I only bring it up because SB16 seems to be the "go to" card for a lot of people, in particular people just getting in to the hobby (not implying that you're one of them), and I'm interested to know why.

SquallStrife wrote:

I only bring it up because SB16 seems to be the "go to" card for a lot of people, in particular people just getting in to the hobby (not implying that you're one of them), and I'm interested to know why.

Everybody knows "Sound Blaster" as a brand, and the 16 was the most common and had the longest reign with the most revisions, therefor the first one to pop in mind for new hobbyists.
Mind you, "new" hobbyists probably had their childhood in the 90s where the SB16 was the most dominant and available across all price ranges.
"Old" hobbyists will probably have a collection of SB cards across all the years of their childhood, and we probably know them since all of us are on Vogons. 😀

After the "go to" stage has passed, the growing hobbyist will expand his knowledge and search for a card or a combination of cards that cover the most ground as their collection of games grow.
In my case a good revision SB16 with an OPL3 and a functional MPU-401 with some daughterboards and external synths.

The SB range from 1.0 to Pro2 were from 1989 to 1992 which is a very narrow period, the SB16 from 1992 to 2000.
The later 90s to early 2000's when the sound card was rapidly replaced by on-board audio chips, the SB16 still ruled strong.

James-F wrote:

The later 90s to early 2000's when the sound card was rapidly replaced by on-board audio chips, the SB16 still ruled strong.

Not to get too far off topic, but that era is actually when sound cards peaked. A3D and EAX became quite a thing at the time, and the PCI sound cards that were released by other companies could really brag about their abilities and simple SNR vs the ISA sound cards of old. Ensoniq-based Creative Labs cards were a joke by that point, and were finally seen by enough consumers (consumers that knew what a sound card was) as a bit of a sham - an unfortunately all too late realization for the early to mid-late 90s DOS sound standards. Creative Labs ruled the DOS days, but fortunately (at least in the world of sound cards) the 9x days were taking over, and Creative was knocked off the throne.

AC'97 did help eliminate the need to spend the extra money on a dedicated sound card, but I completely disagree that the SB16 ruled strong at that time - it was considered a dinosaur of noise by that period of time.

By 1998, I was running an Diamond Monster MX300 (Aureal Vortex 2) with Wave Blaster alongside an AWE64 Gold - a funky setup at the time, to be sure - but one that was necessary to push forward with where PCs and gaming were going and still be able to play games I had enjoyed over the last decade.

I am definitely interested in this thread and where the ideas go as far as combining sound cards where necessary to get the best of all worlds, but I must refute the idea that the SB16 was still even a thing by the end of the 90s.

ISA was still a thing for DOS titles, otherwise not so much.

CkRtech wrote:

I must refute the idea that the SB16 was still even a thing by the end of the 90s.

We are talking ISA cards here, in their natural habitat... DOS.
Of course there is the AWE32 and AWE64 but most lack OPL3 and they are simply a fancy SB16 so to speak.

gdjacobs wrote:

ISA was still a thing for DOS titles,

Correction, ISA still IS a thing for DOS titles. 😀

James-F wrote:

gdjacobs wrote:

ISA was still a thing for DOS titles,

Correction, ISA still IS a thing for DOS titles. 😀

That's not a correction, it's an extension.

Jepael wrote:

There is a problem though, because two cards are at the 388h address, and thus reading the OPL status port will make both OPL chips to drive their status to ISA bus. Most likely there is some glue logic in between but still. What if a game has a timer running on the 228h card and it triggers status port bits to go high, and the 248h card does not have timers running and status port bits are low. Well, with TTL logic chips, the logic low level is stronger than logic high level. So maybe OPL chip detect routines fail to detect the OPL chip.

I'm not sure what happens under the hood but both 388 on the SB16 and YMF work together without any conflict, tested with opl440.com.
Although I have to load the SB16 PnP drivers before the YMF, because the Creative PnP app is smarter and will not enable port 388 if it's already taken.
But this is not what we want for this topic, we want to disable port 388 on the SB16 with the CQM chip which is easy with full PnP SB16 cards (Vibra).
I haven't tested with non-PnP SB16 cards (yet), I'm sure the conflict on port 388 is not an issue but it might sacrifice this solution workability without being able to turn off 388 on the non-pnp SB16.

My go-to SB card is now this one:

It's actually a CT1730 according to the sticker on the back:

It does everything I want when paired with a Dreamblaster S1 and an external MT-32.