All Hail The TNT2 M64 !!

Nice 😀

CL-5430 is also the oldest and wasn't even among best chipsets when it was released. So no surprises there 😉

We have a near-fatal double post situation here! Quick, call in the Hardware Mod to fix it! Oh wait...

TNT2 M64 FTW!
It's got speed, compatibility, funky text modes, VBE3.0... one of the best PCI video cards for DOS gaming.

Hmmm....
I might pull my Creative TNT2-M64 out of my P-III Compaq deskpro EN then!!
The problem now, is what to put into that machine instead.

James-F wrote:

TNT2 M64 FTW!
It's got speed, compatibility, funky text modes, VBE3.0... one of the best PCI video cards for DOS gaming.

While it has VBE3.0 it supports only 8,16 and 32 bit modes.
A typical late S3 Virge supports 8,15,16,24 and 32 bit modes with it's VESA BIOS including the low res modes.

VESAINFO of a S3 Virge/GX2

1Super VGA BIOS extension version 2.00 is installed
2OEM string is 'S3 Incorporated. 86C357'
3Device capabilities are 0
4
5Mode Attr Window  WindowA WindowB Mapping  Bytes Resolution Char BPP Banks Type
6          Grn Siz Seg att Seg att Function /line            Cell   Planes
7
80109 IBCT  32  32 B800 RW         C000:67EB  264  132x25    8x16 4 4 1     Text
9010A IBCT  32  32 B800 RW         C000:67EB  264  132x43    8x8  4 4 1     Text
10012E I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  320  320x200   8x8  8 1 1     VGA
11010D I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  320x200   8x8 15 1 1     06
12010E I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  320x200   8x8 16 1 1     06
130128 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  960  320x200   8x8 24 1 1     06
14010F I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  320x200   8x8 32 1 1     06
150131 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  320  320x240   8x8  8 1 1     VGA
160132 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  320x240   8x8 15 1 1     06
170133 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  320x240   8x8 16 1 1     06
180135 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  960  320x240   8x8 24 1 1     06
190134 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  320x240   8x8 32 1 1     06
200141 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  400  400x300   8x8  8 1 1     VGA
210142 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  800  400x300   8x8 15 1 1     06
220143 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  800  400x300   8x8 16 1 1     06
230145 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1200  400x300   8x8 24 1 1     06
240144 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1600  400x300   8x8 32 1 1     06
250151 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  512  512x384   8x16 8 1 1     VGA
260152 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1024  512x384   8x1615 1 1     06
270153 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1024  512x384   8x1616 1 1     06
280155 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1536  512x384   8x1624 1 1     06
290154 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2048  512x384   8x1632 1 1     06
300100 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  640x400   8x16 8 1 1     VGA
31011C I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  640x400   8x1615 1 1     06
32011D I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  640x400   8x1616 1 1     06
330129 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1920  640x400   8x1624 1 1     06
34011E I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2560  640x400   8x1632 1 1     06
350101 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  640  640x480   8x16 8 1 1     VGA
360110 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  640x480   8x1615 1 1     06
370111 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280  640x480   8x1616 1 1     06
38012A I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1920  640x480   8x1624 1 1     06
390112 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2560  640x480   8x1632 1 1     06
400102 IBCG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  100  800x600   8x8  4 4 1     EGA
410103 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  800  800x600   8x8  8 1 1     VGA
420113 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1600  800x600   8x8 15 1 1     06
430114 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1600  800x600   8x8 16 1 1     06
44012B I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2400  800x600   8x8 24 1 1     06
450115 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3200  800x600   8x8 32 1 1     06
460104 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  128 1024x768   8x16 4 4 1     EGA
470105 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1024 1024x768   8x16 8 1 1     VGA
480116 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2048 1024x768   8x1615 1 1     06
490117 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2048 1024x768   8x1616 1 1     06
50012C I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3072 1024x768   8x1624 1 1     06
510118 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 4096 1024x768   8x1632 1 1     06
520161 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1152 1152x864   8x16 8 1 1     VGA
530162 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2304 1152x864   8x1615 1 1     06
540163 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2304 1152x864   8x1616 1 1     06
550165 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3456 1152x864   8x1624 1 1     06
560164 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 4608 1152x864   8x1632 1 1     06
570106 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB  160 1280x1024  8x16 4 4 1     EGA
580107 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1280 1280x1024  8x16 8 1 1     VGA
590119 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2560 1280x1024  8x1615 1 1     06
60011A I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 2560 1280x1024  8x1616 1 1     06

61012D I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3840 1280x1024  8x1624 1 1     06
620120 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 1600 1600x1200  8x16 8 1 1     VGA
630121 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3200 1600x1200  8x1615 1 1     06
640122 I CG  64  64 A000 RW         C000:67EB 3200 1600x1200  8x1616 1 1     06

This is a really weak spot of the NVidia cards. They were released at a time where DOS (VBE) support got weaker.
For DOS the gain of VBE3 over VBE2 is negligible since the only feature really employed there was setting custom refresh rates. However before cards brought their own tools for this (like S3Refresh or CLMode etc.).

@elianda

How would those missing modes effect the TNT2 negatively in actual use?

I had to run Univbe 5.3a with the S3 and CL in order to get access to 640x480 in Quake. The other cards natively supported that res.

clueless1 wrote:

@elianda
How would those missing modes effect the TNT2 negatively in actual use?

Applications that expect this VESA mode will not work or fallback to a compatibility mode.
Or you have to load an additional TSR (like S3VBE20 / UniVBE) to add those modes.

elianda wrote:

clueless1 wrote:

@elianda
How would those missing modes effect the TNT2 negatively in actual use?

Applications that expect this VESA mode will not work or fallback to a compatibility mode.
Or you have to load an additional TSR (like S3VBE20 / UniVBE) to add those modes.

Sorry, I meant specifically which applications uses these modes so I can see if I would be effected. If I never will use these, then it should not be an issue for me.

That's really it, it's all about what games are you actually playing.

These old Keen games always get mentioned, I never play them 😀

But I do play Wing Commander III, and a lot of cards have this odd flicker when you go from room to room (it plays animations). There is an alternate video mode in the setup, that sometimes fixes the issue. I don't think I tried the TNT2, but on a FX, you always get a flicker. On a V3, with the alternate video mode, it is perfect.

In the Alone in the Dark installation, the text is corrupted. It uses a font, and that can be easily fixed by loading a tool such as FIX8X14 - 8x14 font fixer will resolve this. Again, my FX needs this tool, I don't know about the TNT2.

But yea, everyone has their own little test suite and that's good. Gona's VGA Matrix: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ is awesome, but pretty much none of the games interest me really 😊

PhilsComputerLab wrote:

That's really it, it's all about what games are you actually playing. […]
Show full quote

That's really it, it's all about what games are you actually playing.

These old Keen games always get mentioned, I never play them 😀

But I do play Wing Commander III, and a lot of cards have this odd flicker when you go from room to room (it plays animations). There is an alternate video mode in the setup, that sometimes fixes the issue. I don't think I tried the TNT2, but on a FX, you always get a flicker. On a V3, with the alternate video mode, it is perfect.

In the Alone in the Dark installation, the text is corrupted. It uses a font, and that can be easily fixed by loading a tool such as FIX8X14 - 8x14 font fixer will resolve this. Again, my FX needs this tool, I don't know about the TNT2.

But yea, everyone has their own little test suite and that's good. Gona's VGA Matrix: http://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/ is awesome, but pretty much none of the games interest me really 😊

I remember seeing Gona's chart before, but looking at it with a fresh eye, my S3 325 is about as compatible as there is on there. And not that much slower than the M64. But like you say, I'm not playing the games that have issues anyway. Thanks for linking that chart, Phil.

I forgot that I had an S3 Trio64 V2/DX, so I benched it and added it to the chart in the OP. With the exception of Doom, it's noticeably faster than the Virge. I also separated out the S3 and CL results with and without VESA BIOS Extensions. So they get a ZERO on Quake 640x480 without VBE, and a new line item with the VBE TSR enabled.

I added an ATI Rage 128 GL PCI to the chart in the OP. With the exception of Quake 640x480, it's a very fast card, about the same as the Voodoo3 and Millennium II. But it's about 11% slower in Quake 640x480 (12.7 fps vs. 14.3).

I also included Speedsys VESA memory speeds. They correlate very closely to the rest of the benchmark results.

Lastly, I added a separate chart with only game benchmarks, including Duke Nukem and Descent 2 in various resolutions. In Descent 2, 320x200 and 640x480 have the cockpit on. The other (cockpit off) resolutions show more differentiation between the cards, probably because the static cockpit reduces the amount of moving pixels that need to be rendered. So you will get a better idea comparing the cards by using the non-cockpit resolutions.

Some interesting notes:
1) the onboard CL-GD5430 is consistently 7.5% faster (8.6 fps vs 8.0) in Quake 640x480 with 2MB vs. 1MB.
2) the onboard CL-GD5430 gets consistently lower fps in PCPBench 640x480 with VESA 2.0 compared to VESA 1.2, using Scitech Display Doctor 5.3a.
3) the Millennium II cannot render Descent 2 in 800x600. The screen scrambles like an old TV channel with unadjusted antennas. I tried with and without UNIVBE 6.7, with no difference.
4) The Rage 128 GL is unusually slow in Quake 640 and Duke 640 and 800, but very fast in Descent 2 640 and 800.
5. Trio64 and Virge perform nearly identically in Descent 2 with the cockpit turned on, but when you turn the cockpit off the Trio64 pulls ahead, especially in 800x600.

For Descent 2 and Duke Nukem, how are you determining the frame rate? I don't recall these games having timedemos. Are you taking an instantaneous fps value in-game?

For the Rage 128 GL, did you use a Mac version and flash it with a PC BIOS? All the Rage 128 GL cards I could find when I was looking for them years back were Macintosh versions.

Descent 2 and Duke Nukem have framerate displays. For Descent, type 'frametime' in-game; for Duke, type 'dnrate' in-game. Then after framerate shows, abort game and start new game so that placement in-game is consistent between runs. There is no timedemo, unfortunately. I've done this for a long time, but usually don't show the results when I post because people complain that it's not as accurate as a timedemo. But after Phil posted a video yesterday using these results, I felt encouraged to post my own results. Hey, it's better than nothing, right? And there are not a lot of DOS games that let you see framerates, so I'll take what I can get.

As far as I know, my Rage 128 GL is a PC version. But there is no specific marking on it other than "Rage 128". Speedsys identifies it as a Rage 128 GL, but when I install it in Win98, the driver detects it as Xpert 128. So who knows? I'll post pics of it in a bit.

edit: pics. the writing on the back is mine.

I was aware of the ability to display live framerates such as how you are doing it, but I thought that maybe you were able to hack in a timedemo with some trickery. Oh well...

I too plan to benchmark more games in a manner like you are doing.

Thanks for the photo. I have seen these on eBay, but they all say they are for Mac or Apple G3. How did you find your card?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-Rage-128-16MB-PCI … %3D262406040167

I can't remember for sure how I found mine. 😊

I *think* it was in a box of hardware donated to me from a guy who used to run a PC repair shop in the late 1990's.

Nice stuff 😀

Yea the built-in FPS counters are a great addition to the already existing benchmarks. Like you said, they aren't perfect, but better than nothing and especially with different processors, I am seeing nice scaling.

My conclusions are similar, the CL seems to have a bit of a weakness at higher resolutions. I wonder if there are any CL made tools to speed things up?

The S3VBE20 tool is a must for higher resolutions on the S3 cards, but it does take up 4 KB of memory, at least it did on my machine. Two of my S3 cards have the black level bug, but thanks to switched on VOGONS members, there are fixes for this.

Other games with FPS counters are Wing Commander III and IV, although they are capped at 24 fps. Both are mostly CPU bound, especially inside the large ships.

What I'm seeing is that high resolution games seem to require quite a bit of CPU power, so much that usually there is an AGP interface in the machine.