Neco wrote:

Like many people I regret not saving all the computers I pieced together growing up, so now I'm trying to get back into things. […]
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Like many people I regret not saving all the computers I pieced together growing up, so now I'm trying to get back into things.

I can't do this all in one go, so I'm looking to pick things up a piece at a time when I can find them cheap (risky I know).
old XT/AT cases seem especially hard or expensive to find and not much luck trying to source locally. So I'll settle for something in that style if its easier to acquire.

Right now my aim is to set up a middle of the road type of computer. I jumped straight from a 486 (33Mhz I think) to a Cyrix MII PR233 back in the day so I don't know much about early Pentiums and stuff as they were still too pricey for me to get my hands on. I'd like to build a Pentium based machine though, for running old DOS games and maybe some early Windows95/98 stuff.

Welcome to the forums.

Neco wrote:

CPU Is there a particular chip I might want? A particular motherboard? For DOS obviously I would like to be able to slow the […]
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CPU
Is there a particular chip I might want? A particular motherboard? For DOS obviously I would like to be able to slow the chip down, I'd prefer to do it all in hardware if possible via multiplier / cache disabling, etc. If the multiplier can be controlled via sofotware that is a bonus. I don't mind going for a higher class machine if its easier to do with that, but I don't want to end up with something that is still too fast even if slowed down.
I have had an original Pentium MMX in mind since they seem to be very cheap at the moment (cheaper than 486 gear!). Just not sure if I want to go with a 75/90/133/166/233 Mhz etc.. At what point do I need to worry about using a good cooler + thermal compound? IIRC I never used compound on my PR233, it was just some hand-tightened mounting system that went directly onto the chip.
RAM
Will any old RAM do? As long as its EDO or w/e is required. I will likely buy a set together and not individual sticks in any case. Anything to look out for? I don't really care about playing with memory timings and all that to be honest, unless its going to improve stability and help prevent crashes or something. I am less about the tinkering and overclocking these days and more about a simple, enjoyable experience.

Motherboard
I'm not sure what to look for in a motherboard. I don't even remember the model of my first Socket 7 motherboard, all I remember was it was an Epox board. I think there is a certain model of ASUS mobo that seems to be prized around here?? P5A ??

I'm not concerned with ancient ancient games (if I needed to I could try moslo for those) but mainly the DOS / Early Windows era from the 90s which featured lots of big colorful VGA graphics, etc. Eventually I'd put a Voodoo2 SLI setup in the machine. I have one I bought right after 3Dfx went tits up (bought it more to have one as a collector, since my old one died). But I'll probably buy an SLI set or something down the line.

For standard video I am thinking of picking up an S3 Virge type PCI card. maybe one with 4MB of RAM. I never really owned any high end 2D cards but this seems to be a good choice.

Monitor
Are there any pitfalls to using a modern LED/LCD/IPS display? Does it need to be 4:3? I will likely just do that if I can get away with it. As long as the monitor doesn't do anything crazy like try to stretch the image, etc.
I've got an old 19" Samsung 1280x1024 LCD I could probably use. Not too sure on the quality of its DSub input though.

I've got a sound card (SB16 CT2290) that should be on the way soon.

Power
Power Supply is an important question. I'm trying to get an ATX board if possible, but if I do end up with an AT board, are those ATX - AT power connection adapters you see on ebay, safe / worth it? It would make sourcing a PSU easier. As long as ATX/AT have the same footprint or w/e to go into a case I might go with that option. But mainly I'll be striving for an ATX motherboard. Although I am decidedly curious if it is possible to rig an ATX PSU to work with the old XT/AT style cases and their power switch relays ? Something to consider for when I can get around to acquiring one or two of them.
What wattage range am I looking for here anyway? 250W? I don't know much about how much power older PC's actually require.

hard drives are kind of secondary concern.. I sure would like a nice humming drive with clicky heads, but may go with a compact flash solution to start with (cheap?). Same for floppies. I do have a floppy drive or two I should probably use to archive stuff I still have though. Optical should be easy enough to source (would like to pick up a drive from.

I think this covers most of my concerns. Sorry for the wall of text.

Building a DOS machine can become complicated / expensive. The best DOS experience is no doubt original period correct hardware, but that's expensive and takes up a lot of room. Building a sort of "jack of all trades PC" is possible, and there are a few builds you can do:

1. Socket 5/7 Pentium / Cyrix / AMD K6(1) machine. This is pretty straight forward. Most socket 5/7 machines can play most 1993 -> games w/o issues. You can go several routes here:

1.A. Classic socket 7 pentium machine - these would be easiest to find / build, and probably the cheapest. An intel 430 or VIA VP3 motherboard, AT or ATX form factor (VIA VP3 boards should be easier to find in ATX form factor) paired up with a pentium CPU. Pentium allow for certain degrees of slow-down - on a pentium 200 (non-mmx) you should be able to run the CPU at 133, 166 and 200MHz on any motherboard by jumper, but you still won't be able to run speed sensitive games. Most boards support only 60 and 66MHz FSB, meaning the biggest slow-down would be 1.5x 60mhz = 90MHz. Others support 50MHz as well, allowing you to run the CPU at 75MHz. With cache disabled from bios, it should roughly equal a 486. Such a mainboard + say a 200 or 166Mhz pentium should allow you to run most DOS games, including newer ones, including 3D DOS games if you get a Voodoo card.

1.B Some "special" Socket 5 motherboards, particularly earlier socket 5 boards, have unofficial FSB settings for as low as 25MHz, allowing you to slow down a 200MHz pentium CPU to say 1.5x 25 = 37.5 MHz. With cache disabled from bios, it should equal a 386, allowing you to run speed sensitive 1988?-1993 games. These boards require some research, and they are hit and miss, since those unofficial jumper setting require experimentation and the board itself.

2. Super Socket 7 + AMD K6-III CPU. These machines allow you to disable / enable cache and change the multiplier from DOS - making them great for running most games from 1988? to 2000. They can get slow enough for 386 era games, and fast enough for 1998-1999 games - BUT there's a caveat - super socket 7 (VIA MVP3 and ALi Aladdin V) boards are pretty rare and expensive. Some come in ATX format, others are AT, BUT have an ATX connector and will allow you to use an ATX PSU. Also ALL super 7 boards come with AGP. Paired with a 3DFX Voodoo Banshee or Voodoo 3, the can run not only old DOS games, but 3d games as well, including glide only games.

3. Socket 370 boards with VIA CPUs. These CPUs like the K6-III allow you to change the CPU's speed from software using setmul, but not all socket 370 boards support VIA processors - usually FPGA 2 boards with Tualatin support do, and those can be rare and sometimes expensive. I'm not very knoladgeable on this setup, and have not tried it myself, but someone will most likely add to this or correct me.

4. Socket 3 486 machines. As you allready know, these are getting rare and expensive. They can be slowed down to 386 speed and lower by BIOS or use of a TURBO button, and will run games from 1986 to 1996 comfortably. They will not do 3D games well tough - you can run DOOM, Descent and Duke 3D in 320x240 well, but later games like Carmageddon, Tomb Raider and alike will run poorly. Also these machines require an AT keyboard and a Serial mouse, an all come in AT format. Socket 3 boards with PS2 are rare and expensive. Most OEM machines have PS2, but they have rudimentary BIOS and lack the useful TURBO button, so stay away from these.

To summarize, a Super Socket 7 machine would be the most flexible and easiest to find, but it might be expensive. As for other hardware:

Video card:

For pure DOS, I recommend either an S3 Trio64/S3 Virge or a Cirrus Logics Cl-GD5440/CL-GD5460. They offer the greatest compatibility with older games, as some will act up on matrox card and more modern graphics solutions. I also suggest you get a Voodoo 1 or Voodoo 2 card for GLIDE games - there's quite a few of them, and voodoo cards add to the experience. A voodoo / voodoo 2 can be had for 15-25$ depending on condition / source.

If you plan to build a super socket 7 or socket 370 VIA CPU machine, get a Voodoo Banshee or Voodoo 3 card. They are AGP so you save a PCI slot, have very, very good dos compatibility and good 3D performance for glide/opengl/d3d games.

Here's some tests I made of 2D and some 3D cards in games - you can find both performance and compatibility here: DOS PCI Video Card Compatibility and Benchmark tests

Sound card:

A regular SB16 card will do fine, but you might want some wavetable midi music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFX63IGmbwY&t=16s <- as you can see, midi music can range from meh to almost CD Quality, depending on what card you get. The AWE32/64 series are pretty cheap, especially the AWE64 value series, but they only have wavetable music support in newer games that support the cards, and don't sound as good as say an Roland MT32 or SC55. My advice is get an AWE64 value since they are pretty cheap - and if you find yourself wanting more, you can look into getting an external midi module like an MT32 or the cheaper SC55 later. An alternative to quality midi music is to get an internal wavetable add-on card - like the Dreamblaster S1 and X1 series, made by someone who posts here on vogons. It's pretty easy to find the site selling them using google. They sound pretty good, the are new hardware, and can cost quite a bit less then a roland MT32. Stick one on any ISA card with a wavetable header (like a yamaha opl3-ax or sound blaster 16) and you're good to go.

PSU:

Most 200w AT PSUs are enough for most AT builds. As for ATX, try to find older brand name PSUs. 250-300w is more then enough. Modern PSUs in old machines can cause issues with sound cards and even hard disk drives, or cause instability. I recommend using an AT PSU for AT form factor boards, although you can get an ATX to AT adapter and use an ATX PSU as well, but it's a bit more fidgety.

Case:

You can fit a baby AT board in an ATX case. A lot of space will be left over at the top, but screw holes and card slots align perfectly. You can also install an AT PSU in an ATX case, but you will have to mod the case to get the power button on the front. I prefer using AT cases because they are smaller, installation of components are pretty straight forward, and have that retro feel.

HDD:

Some people go the IDE to CF adapter + CF card route, but I don't like it since setting them up on older machines can be a pain in the ass, and they can be slower then an old HDD at times. Also keep in mind most socket 5 and 7 machines can see up to 18gb drives, in some rare cases up to 80GB I think with a BIOS patch. Super 7 boards can use up to 160GB with a BIOS patch.

Monitor:

Most DOS games will look fine on newer LCD monitors. Some people swear by CRTs, but I don't like CRTs for a variety of reasons (size, eye strain, etc). Personally I use stuff like this for DOS games:

4:3 or 5:4 monitors, capable of 1280x1024 (1600x1200 for the samsung) made in 2008 or newer. These are usually TN panels and have good response times. I recommend older 2008-2010 profesional monitors since they support a wide range of resolutions, have great color reproduction and some display low resolutions really well. You can get new IPS/MVA LED backlit monitors, like my 19" 5:4 Iiyama Prolite, but they can be a bit on the expensive side.

4:3 or 5:4 monitors, capable of 1280x1024 (1600x1200 for the samsung) made in 2008 or newer. These are usually TN panels and have good response times. I recommend older 2008-2010 profesional monitors since they support a wide range of resolutions, have great color reproduction and some display low resolutions really well. You can get new IPS/MVA LED backlit monitors, like my 19" 5:4 Iiyama Prolite, but they can be a bit on the expensive side.

With "newer" monitors there is a problem with input lag. I use LG M228VA for old systems and HP LP2065 for emulation purposes. If I had space I'd use CRT for old systems (have many in the storage).

Well, as a big fan i have to recommend the Asus P5A as well. I use it in the k6-3+ system in my sig and it is super: it will play a lot of 3d games and can also be slowed down for some older ones.
With an Amd ''+'' cpu you can be a bit more versatile and also clock higher but the normal k6-3 is fine too.

When using an Intel mmx just go for the fastest: 233mmx. Especially if you want to use v2 sli as this setup wants some cpu power (k6-3 is much better suited and p3 is best). You can also downclcok that one if you need something slower, and on a super 7 board it can also overclock pretty well.

Other great super 7 boards are the Gigabyte Ga-5ax and Aopen AX59pro. Last one is based on the Via mvp3 chipset, P5A and Ga-5ax are Ali V based. Both chipsets do not have the greatest AGP implementation and if you want to avoid agp problems use 3dfx agp cards. Mine runs perfectly fine with a Geforce2 GTS but not with my Geforce2 Ti for example, it can be a bit picky when it comes to agp. I did benchmark a lot of cards in that system and most of them worked fine (tested some Nvidia, matrox 3dfx etc.)

The p5a/ax59pro/ga-5ax are full atx boards: atx psu, ps/2 keyboard and mouse and they support sdram pc100.

So go super 7 and enjoy it!

kixs wrote:

4:3 or 5:4 monitors, capable of 1280x1024 (1600x1200 for the samsung) made in 2008 or newer. These are usually TN panels and have good response times. I recommend older 2008-2010 profesional monitors since they support a wide range of resolutions, have great color reproduction and some display low resolutions really well. You can get new IPS/MVA LED backlit monitors, like my 19" 5:4 Iiyama Prolite, but they can be a bit on the expensive side.

With "newer" monitors there is a problem with input lag. I use LG M228VA for old systems and HP LP2065 for emulation purposes. If I had space I'd use CRT for old systems (have many in the storage).

My Iiyama monitor is made in 2011 and has not input lag whatsoever. In fact I've only experienced input lag on older 2005-2008 LCD's.

What's your budget?

You could opt for Super 7 or a s370 rig along with a VIA chip (you can always swap for a Coppermine and faster AGP card if you ever require more speed). All except the latest s370 boards feature ISA slots which you will want if you intent to go DOS.

s370 should be relatively cheap and not hard to find (unless you want a Tualatin board maybe).

Slot 1 might also be interesting and the earlier Pentium 2s were able to downclock, but it doesn't have the same flexibility that Super 7 does (unless maybe you use a VIA chip on a slotket or so, but this might be troublesome)

But it's basically the same that's already been mentioned here, go buy stuff and have fun 🤣!

edit: You might enjoy reading through here Good reading for people new to retro computing
If you're looking for inspiration, then I'd suggest you read the Vogonswiki or Redhill guide

meljor wrote:

Well, as a big fan i have to recommend the Asus P5A as well. I use it in the k6-3+ system in my sig and it is super: it will pla […]
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Well, as a big fan i have to recommend the Asus P5A as well. I use it in the k6-3+ system in my sig and it is super: it will play a lot of 3d games and can also be slowed down for some older ones.
With an Amd ''+'' cpu you can be a bit more versatile and also clock higher but the normal k6-3 is fine too.

When using an Intel mmx just go for the fastest: 233mmx. Especially if you want to use v2 sli as this setup wants some cpu power (k6-3 is much better suited and p3 is best). You can also downclcok that one if you need something slower, and on a super 7 board it can also overclock pretty well.

Other great super 7 boards are the Gigabyte Ga-5ax and Aopen AX59pro. Last one is based on the Via mvp3 chipset, P5A and Ga-5ax are Ali V based. Both chipsets do not have the greatest AGP implementation and if you want to avoid agp problems use 3dfx agp cards. Mine runs perfectly fine with a Geforce2 GTS but not with my Geforce2 Ti for example, it can be a bit picky when it comes to agp. I did benchmark a lot of cards in that system and most of them worked fine (tested some Nvidia, matrox 3dfx etc.)

The p5a/ax59pro/ga-5ax are full atx boards: atx psu, ps/2 keyboard and mouse and they support sdram pc100.

So go super 7 and enjoy it!

Just don't forget that some of the later revision P5A boards had some troubles using those "+" chips 😜

Thanks for the feedback guys. A lot of stuff to consider. I actually had a K6-2 550Mhz back in the day (my first genuine Intel was a Core 2 Duo) as well, I remember getting UltraHLE and running Super Mario 64 on my Voodoo2 with that system, that was a hoot. I'd really like to find a nice AT case (5170 has a nice aesthetic for those of us who like sharp angles) one day, but I'll probably settle for an AT tower of some sort in the beginning. Or maybe mod a cheap $20 ATX tower.

As for budget, well that's the million dollar question isn't it? "as cheap as possible" is the best way to describe it. I mean, the CT2290 I bought I actually got for $27 (hopefully seller comes through, USPS has a shipping record now, just waiting on the seller) and when you manage to find it listed it goes for like $100+. I feel like getting a good mobo and CPU together, or separately I think $150 is a good deal. Then I can wait it out on deals for AT towers or something with free shipping.

I forgot to ask about keyboards / mice. Back in those days I always used cheap mice, usually serial mice, so I've never really thought about what a quality mouse might bring to the table. I need a good mouse pad and good mouse recommendations. I should probably ask what a good keyboard is too - because lord knows I am not paying $200 or more for a Model M unless I suddenly inherit some money. Something similar would be nice, mechanical is always a bonus. Clicky but not TOO LOUD perhaps.

I would probably buy a period HDD but I'm afraid of failure / stiction etc. Usually if something bad is going to happen it happens to me 😒

Super Socket 7 sounds like a nice possible investment. I am finding some boards for not outrageous pricing and the CPUs can probably be had for pretty cheap.

My only problem with SS7 boards is the layout. I'm pretty sure I owned a SS7 board for my K62 (or something with a similar layout) and I had problems with the Voodoo2 being too long and having to bend it slightly to get around my CPU's heatsink. SLI doesn't Voodoo2 doesn't look possible on this setup which is a shame. Is there any reason to want/not want a Voodoo Banshee AGP over a Voodoo2 SLI setup?

My moms old machine had one and it was alright, but the card seemed to run hot (the one she had only had a heatsink??)

Neco wrote:

My moms old machine had one and it was alright, but the card seemed to run hot (the one she had only had a heatsink??)

Voodoo 2 sli gets kinda hot aswell when strained without active cooling (had this problem myself, check my link in the sig for more info on that). A banshee or v3 would be a better choice in a ss7 build tbh, planning to go banshee myself for a ss7 setup and cooling a banshee is easy since it already has passive cooling by attaching a matching fan to it which I suggest using noiseblocker or enermax fans (noiseblocker is very quiet and cheap, enermax fans are very quiet while still retaining a fair amount air flow thus more expensive).
A banshee is also the cheapest (€20-€40 depending on brand and state), while a voodoo sli alone costs €60-€90 depending on the state and adding another €10-€30 for a 2d card. A v3 is abit more expensive depending on the model, but let's not forget velocity which was the v3 value card.

Voodoo 3 PCI will give you performance of Voodoo 2 SLI. Different chips are built for different temperatures and 3dfx did like it hot.

I have acquired an FIC PA-2013 Super Socket 7 motherboard, with an AMD K6-III 400ACK (400Mhz) CPU from ebay. It also comes with 1 stick of RAM. Its said to be tested and working so I am hoping for the best.
I heard the PA-2013 is one of the best Super Socket 7 boards to own, depending on what you want to do?

I'm not sure what version of the board it is, but I know the 2MB cache version has stability issues above 100Mhz FSB, but that's not really what I bought it for. I looked through the manual online and it seems I should be able to slow the CPU down to 90Mhz using the multiplier and bus speed adjustments. From there I think disabling any cache, etc and software slowdown will get me where I need to be for any old games, and I still have the option of playing quite a few windows games as well.

Even if it turns out its not the best board to have, it was still a great price (I feel). Originally it was floating around $100 for everything, so I added it to my watch list hoping no one would buy it until I got paid. Then I came home tonight and say it was put on 22% discount, so I got it for $78 with free shipping. Not bad, all I need is to grab GPU and should be able to test it no problem

Currently considering a 3D Blaster Banshee to go with my Super 7 board. It's the cheapest Banshee derivative I've seen so far. Anyone know if its possible to get Windows 3.11 drivers for this card?

edit: after some careful though. I really want this box to be a good 2D / Voodoo2 SLI for 3D box. I am consider an Aopen PT75 Plus II video card for the 2D (and Windows 3.1 drivers ) stuff as it's cousin the PT75 seemed to come out really good on that chart linked up higher in this thread. I just wish I could find information on what the differences are. I don't want to invest in a crappy upgrade that wasn't really an upgrade, if the original PT75 is still better than the Plus II model.

an update on the monitor front.

I pulled my Samsung 931b (19" 1280x1024 5:4) out of the attic. It works great, it was actually recapped (backlight went out) a while before I stopped using it so hopefully good for a few years more. I hope it works good and looks good for dos gaming.

Its hooked up to a S3 VirgeGX (Q5C4BB), AOpen PT75 II Plus. Not sure how much ram the card has, don't have the utilities to check at the moment. Got the FIC hooked up to a PSU and tested it to power on / BIOS pretty much.

I don't know how to identify my motherboard revision / model revision. It looks like there were several versions of the PA-2013. (I've seen conflicting information on where to look which numbers identify things). I believe I have a 2.0 E-0036 revision. Whatever that means. 😵

So it appears the CPU is actually a K6-2, no idea what frequency is its base until I bother to buy a HSF that's all copper and then find a more quiet fan to put on it.

I've been having a hell of a time finding out the exact board version and a manual to go with it. having weird results. Some of the jumper settings and the frequencies are spot on (within a few Mhz), while others are completely bizzare. I tried to get a 66Mhz * 2x post and it posts as 396Mhz lmao

Don't know if the manual is wrong or the board doesn't match it or what. I know some stuff listed in all the manuals I've found on FICs FTP don't seem to quite match between schematics and board features.

The closest I've come to anything accurate / relateable to my board is the 2013B1 manual

2x multipliers on k6-2 and later have been hardwired to 6x, so this is normal (66*6=400). Using lower or higher would work correctly

I want to say something that I don't know if anyone else here has repeated, but with Socket 7 and Super Socket 7 builds you have to be careful about hard drive size. I don't know the range of storage my motherboard can support, but I have the Asus P5A in my K6-III 450MHz build and right now I have a 20GB HDD in there, soon replacing it with a 32GB CF card. That will probably be the highest my board supports, as I tried installing on an 80GB drive and it just wouldn't recognize it in setup even though the BIOS could at least see there was a drive.

Thanks for the advice. Currently I have a 2.5GB drive on the way here. If the roads are OK tomorrow my friend and I are going for a trip to his storage unit where he has a "junk case" he said he would give to me. He thinks it had a bad mobo or something but I am hoping it is old enough that it has IDE cables and such inside I can scrounge. and hopefully it has a CD burner or something I can use for optical.

I do have an 80GB seagate here I might try with the board.

@Deksor thanks so much for that information. What a dumb decision AMD, 2x is the lowest I can get on this board (apparently the 1.5x and 1x are for K5 CPUs only). So far the lowest I have had this chip clocked down was 166Mhz I believe.

Can anyone please comment on slowing down these CPUs through software utilities etc??

Ideally I would like to leave it clocked up around 400Mhz for Windows games and stuff, but also be able to slow it down. I don't mind if I have to reboot to disable cache or anything, but if there is anything I can run in software that will stay in effect while in DOS, I would love to know the details about it. I know about moslo and stuff but I heard there were also ways to control clock speed / multipliers through software..

Or was that only K6-III chips??

Only for K6-x+ !
Also wiring 2x to 6x wasn't a bad idea since these cpus were often used as upgrade CPUs for regular socket 7 which means often only 66MHz FSB and up to 3.5x multiplier only. This allows you to upgrade from 233 MHz pentium mmx to K6-2 400 or K6-III which makes a really good upgrade

The 32GB limit depends of which company did your BIOS and what revision it is. Award bioses had this issue until somewhere in 1999 (I don't recall when exactly they patched that) which means that normally any bios from 2000 or later won't have that problem

Deksor wrote:

2x multipliers on k6-2 and later have been hardwired to 6x, so this is normal (66*6=400). Using lower or higher would work correctly

Just to add a bit of extra info: The 6x multi was made available for the K6-2 with CXT core, so maybe the K6-2 preceding CXT (original Chomper) still used it as 2x.

Interesting.

Anyone have any thoughts on using a Zalman CNPS3100-Plus for cooling? Silence is a premium for me and I'm not exactly trying to push with overclocking etc. Although IIRC K6-2's were considered pretty warm chips?
It's one of the few all copper coolers I can still find for sale that might fit my mobo. Have to see what kind of case it goes in, if PSU will get in the way or not.

I'm definitely looking for all copper, that can support low speed / quiet fans of 60mm or larger.