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Retrofitting SSD to Older Computer?

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First post, by gryffinwings

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So I'm sure this is possible, and I know a couple of options, but I do not know what limitations I have:

1. Will the SATA to IDE adapter work?
2. Would a PCI controller work better?
3. Would you be able to boot with the PCI controller card with SATA drive as primary?
4. Can I use the latest SATA III standard?
5. What's the best option?

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 1 of 34, by dionb

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1. Probably. Depends on exactly which IDE controller you have and which adapter, but generally, most work in most cases. Note that such an adapter can't in itself work around BIOS or OS size limits.
2. Once again, depends on the system. Not every PCI controller will work in every older computer - Silicon Image controllers don't like old PCI bus standards, some newer Promise cards don't have Win9x drivers etc. If it is supported, it is theoretically faster because the additional PATA -> SATA conversion step adds latency. However you're not going to notice that on a really old system. You also *really* won't notice the difference in bus speed, unless you're comparing PIO3 to SATA300 (but I doubt you'd get the SATA300 adapter working in a system with PIO3...)
3. Depends on the BIOS, but generally: yes. Some more modern BIOSs see it as a regular HDD you can choose, with older ones choose "SCSI"
4. SATA is backwards compatible, so yes, you can use those drives. I don't think there are any SATA-3 controllers for regular PCI or older, but again, this is irrelevant with the sort of CPU you have.
5. Completely depends on the hardware and software you want to use it with.

Two examples I have:
1) Pentium 100 system with Intel AN430TX board (ATA-33) running DOS. Using an el-cheapo PATA-SATA converter with an 8GB Sandisk SATA SSD. Works fine, is vastly faster than HDD.
2) Pentium3-750E system with MSI MS-6168 board running Win2k. Using a Promise SATA-300 TX2 Plus PCI controller with a 64GB Intel X25E SLC SSD. Total overkill, both on the controller and the SLC SSD, but that's the point of this particular system. Note that boot time would be better with the same SSD via a PATA-SATA adapter, as that would only be a bit slower (slightly higher latencies and throughput bottlenecked to ATA-33), whereas the Promise controller adds about 8 seconds to boot time.

Reply 2 of 34, by Jo22

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gryffinwings wrote:
So I'm sure this is possible, and I know a couple of options, but I do not know what limitations I have: […]
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So I'm sure this is possible, and I know a couple of options, but I do not know what limitations I have:

1. Will the SATA to IDE adapter work?
2. Would a PCI controller work better?
3. Would you be able to boot with the PCI controller card with SATA drive as primary?
4. Can I use the latest SATA III standard?
5. What's the best option?

Hello! To answer your first question, yes, that works.
I've already gotten such a converter to work on my Power Mac G4 in combination with an SSD.
Performance wasn't best, but this was much less troublesome than finding a PCI SATA controller that works with both OS9 and OS X.
Since I don't know what computer platforms you're intending to use such a configuration with, I can give you a general answer like this only.
There are also other factors, such as host OS support for TRIM or alignment, whereas the latter depends on filesystem/partition types.
But all in all, yes, you can retrofit an SSD to an older computer system quite easily. 😀

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 3 of 34, by The Serpent Rider

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Just buy IDE SSD and 2.5 inch IDE adapter.

There are also other factors, such as host OS support for TRIM or alignment, whereas the latter depends on filesystem/partition types

TRIM wise, Intel X25-E will be best option. it's SLC based SSD and will work absolutely fine with everything you'll throw at it. Complete overkill though.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 4 of 34, by gryffinwings

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Jo22 wrote:
Hello! To answer your first question, yes, that works. I've already gotten such a converter to work on my Power Mac G4 in combin […]
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gryffinwings wrote:
So I'm sure this is possible, and I know a couple of options, but I do not know what limitations I have: […]
Show full quote

So I'm sure this is possible, and I know a couple of options, but I do not know what limitations I have:

1. Will the SATA to IDE adapter work?
2. Would a PCI controller work better?
3. Would you be able to boot with the PCI controller card with SATA drive as primary?
4. Can I use the latest SATA III standard?
5. What's the best option?

Hello! To answer your first question, yes, that works.
I've already gotten such a converter to work on my Power Mac G4 in combination with an SSD.
Performance wasn't best, but this was much less troublesome than finding a PCI SATA controller that works with both OS9 and OS X.
Since I don't know what computer platforms you're intending to use such a configuration with, I can give you a general answer like this only.
There are also other factors, such as host OS support for TRIM or alignment, whereas the latter depends on filesystem/partition types.
But all in all, yes, you can retrofit an SSD to an older computer system quite easily. 😀

dionb wrote:
1. Probably. Depends on exactly which IDE controller you have and which adapter, but generally, most work in most cases. Note th […]
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1. Probably. Depends on exactly which IDE controller you have and which adapter, but generally, most work in most cases. Note that such an adapter can't in itself work around BIOS or OS size limits.
2. Once again, depends on the system. Not every PCI controller will work in every older computer - Silicon Image controllers don't like old PCI bus standards, some newer Promise cards don't have Win9x drivers etc. If it is supported, it is theoretically faster because the additional PATA -> SATA conversion step adds latency. However you're not going to notice that on a really old system. You also *really* won't notice the difference in bus speed, unless you're comparing PIO3 to SATA300 (but I doubt you'd get the SATA300 adapter working in a system with PIO3...)
3. Depends on the BIOS, but generally: yes. Some more modern BIOSs see it as a regular HDD you can choose, with older ones choose "SCSI"
4. SATA is backwards compatible, so yes, you can use those drives. I don't think there are any SATA-3 controllers for regular PCI or older, but again, this is irrelevant with the sort of CPU you have.
5. Completely depends on the hardware and software you want to use it with.

Two examples I have:
1) Pentium 100 system with Intel AN430TX board (ATA-33) running DOS. Using an el-cheapo PATA-SATA converter with an 8GB Sandisk SATA SSD. Works fine, is vastly faster than HDD.
2) Pentium3-750E system with MSI MS-6168 board running Win2k. Using a Promise SATA-300 TX2 Plus PCI controller with a 64GB Intel X25E SLC SSD. Total overkill, both on the controller and the SLC SSD, but that's the point of this particular system. Note that boot time would be better with the same SSD via a PATA-SATA adapter, as that would only be a bit slower (slightly higher latencies and throughput bottlenecked to ATA-33), whereas the Promise controller adds about 8 seconds to boot time.

I apologize, I totally forgot to add what my current system specs. It's not too old.

OS: Windows XP 32-bit
Mobo: Asus A7V266-E Socket A/462
Chipset: VIA KM266A
CPU: AMD Athlon XP 1700+ (Palomino)
RAM: 512 MB
HDD: Western Digital Caviar Blue 160GB 7200RPM
GPU: ATi Radeon 9500 Pro (Softmodded to 9700 Pro)

If it's any clarification, it uses ATA100.

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 5 of 34, by gryffinwings

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The Serpent Rider wrote:

Just buy IDE SSD and 2.5 inch IDE adapter.

There are also other factors, such as host OS support for TRIM or alignment, whereas the latter depends on filesystem/partition types

TRIM wise, Intel X25-E will be best option. it's SLC based SSD and will work absolutely fine with everything you'll throw at it. Complete overkill though.

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 6 of 34, by dionb

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gryffinwings wrote:
[...] […]
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[...]

I apologize, I totally forgot to add what my current system specs. It's not too old.

OS: Windows XP 32-bit
Mobo: Asus A7V266-E Socket A/462
Chipset: VIA KM266A

Er no... the A7V266-E has the KT266A chipset. Not that it make any difference in terms of SATA support... it's all PCI 2.2 compliant.

If it's any clarification, it uses ATA100.

That means that differences will be slim.

On a system this new, it's tricky: a PCI SATA controller won't have the latency added by a converter - but the PCI bus itself will bottleneck well below 133MB/s. The ATA-100 controller is embedded in the VT8233 southbridge, which is connected to the northbridge via the 'V-link' bus, which has twice the bandwidth of PCI. So in the end, the bandwidth bottleneck would be pretty similar. You probably get a bit less latency on a PCI controller, so long as you're not doing anything else significant on the PCI bus.

Reply 7 of 34, by gryffinwings

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dionb wrote:
Er no... the A7V266-E has the KT266A chipset. Not that it make any difference in terms of SATA support... it's all PCI 2.2 compl […]
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gryffinwings wrote:
[...] […]
Show full quote

[...]

I apologize, I totally forgot to add what my current system specs. It's not too old.

OS: Windows XP 32-bit
Mobo: Asus A7V266-E Socket A/462
Chipset: VIA KM266A

Er no... the A7V266-E has the KT266A chipset. Not that it make any difference in terms of SATA support... it's all PCI 2.2 compliant.

If it's any clarification, it uses ATA100.

That means that differences will be slim.

On a system this new, it's tricky: a PCI SATA controller won't have the latency added by a converter - but the PCI bus itself will bottleneck well below 133MB/s. The ATA-100 controller is embedded in the VT8233 southbridge, which is connected to the northbridge via the 'V-link' bus, which has twice the bandwidth of PCI. So in the end, the bandwidth bottleneck would be pretty similar. You probably get a bit less latency on a PCI controller, so long as you're not doing anything else significant on the PCI bus.

About the chipset, the website I got it off of must have been wrong. About the PCI stuff, the plan is to run a Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS and an Ethernet card for easier downloading and updating of drivers and other basic things. Sounds like a SATA to ide adapter might be the best thing to do 😒 .

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 8 of 34, by Jo22

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gryffinwings wrote:

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use.
For example, there's the Transcend TS32GPSD330. But I've also seen some by KingSpec.
Just search the web for "32GB PATA SSD" and you should get some results. 😀

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 9 of 34, by gryffinwings

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Jo22 wrote:
Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use. For example, there's the T […]
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gryffinwings wrote:

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use.
For example, there's the Transcend TS32GPSD330. But I've also seen some by KingSpec.
Just search the web for "32GB PATA SSD" and you should get some results. 😀

I see, that's a little smaller than I want to be for this computer. I think I'd prefer to keep drive space to over 100 GBs. So it looks like a SATA to IDE adapter. If I use the adapter, SATA III drives will work right?

Also I was in CPU-Z to confirm the chipset, this is what I get:

Chipset: VIA KT266/333
Southbridge: VIA8233

What's the deal with the chipset name? I thought this was just a KT266.

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 10 of 34, by Kamerat

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gryffinwings wrote:

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

I got a Super Talent Industrial Temp 64GB SLC SATA drive that actually uses a SATA-IDE bridge internally just like many early SATA HDDs, as you already guessed there were also IDE versions of the same drive.

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Reply 11 of 34, by Merovign

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Other World Computing also makes new IDE SSDs, primarily for older Macs though obviously they work with PCs.

It's exactly the same high-end SSD and their SATA model, just with an IDE interface (they brag up all the features, but seriously it's better than most IDE SSDs, but more expensive).

It's up to you as to whether it's worth the cost. You can certainly get cheaper ones.

Beware cheap Ebay SSDs. Some of them are a great deal, some of them are literally fake or repackaged used.

Someone mentioned Super Talent above, they get good reviews.

*Too* *many* *things*!

Reply 12 of 34, by ph4nt0m

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Jo22 wrote:
Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use. For example, there's the T […]
Show full quote
gryffinwings wrote:

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use.
For example, there's the Transcend TS32GPSD330. But I've also seen some by KingSpec.
Just search the web for "32GB PATA SSD" and you should get some results. 😀

The X25-E is very reliable. Intel 50nm SLC NAND flash. Also sold as Kingston SSDNow E series (SNE125-S2). Doesn't support TRIM and doesn't really need it most likely with over 100,000 write cycles per flash cell.

Many IDE SLC SSDs are industrial designs like the Transcend PSD530 series. Not very fast, much slower than the X25-E actually, but leaps and bounds better than old IDE HDDs. Also better than CF cards in IDE adaptors. It's better to go with SLC rather than MLC because old operating systems have no idea about TRIM.

My Active Sales on CPU-World

Reply 13 of 34, by gryffinwings

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ph4nt0m wrote:
Jo22 wrote:
Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use. For example, there's the T […]
Show full quote
gryffinwings wrote:

Never heard of IDE SSD. I found the Intel X25-E hard drive, and I find they are pretty cheap refurbished. Seems like a decent hard drive.

Hi, don't worry you haven't. They aren't very common. Mainly intended for industrial or embedded use.
For example, there's the Transcend TS32GPSD330. But I've also seen some by KingSpec.
Just search the web for "32GB PATA SSD" and you should get some results. 😀

The X25-E is very reliable. Intel 50nm SLC NAND flash. Also sold as Kingston SSDNow E series (SNE125-S2). Doesn't support TRIM and doesn't really need it most likely with over 100,000 write cycles per flash cell.

Many IDE SLC SSDs are industrial designs like the Transcend PSD530 series. Not very fast, much slower than the X25-E actually, but leaps and bounds better than old IDE HDDs. Also better than CF cards in IDE adaptors. It's better to go with SLC rather than MLC because old operating systems have no idea about TRIM.

I just realized the Intel drive that I found was not the X25-E, it was the Intel X25-M, finding the X25-E much more expensive. Here's the one I found:

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-X25-M-160GB-Inte … rds=Intel+X25-E

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 14 of 34, by ph4nt0m

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gryffinwings wrote:

I just realized the Intel drive that I found was not the X25-E, it was the Intel X25-M, finding the X25-E much more expensive. Here's the one I found:

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-X25-M-160GB-Inte … rds=Intel+X25-E

I prefer not to buy used or refurbished MLC SSDs without a SMART report showing little usage. SLC SSDs are another story. If you don't need much space, you can buy a used 64GB X25-E on eBay for $40 to $50 usually.

My Active Sales on CPU-World

Reply 15 of 34, by matze79

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I use a 3AWARE 9500 and a 40Gb Intel SSD inside my K6-2 😉

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Reply 16 of 34, by dionb

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ph4nt0m wrote:
gryffinwings wrote:

I just realized the Intel drive that I found was not the X25-E, it was the Intel X25-M, finding the X25-E much more expensive. Here's the one I found:

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-X25-M-160GB-Inte … rds=Intel+X25-E

I prefer not to buy used or refurbished MLC SSDs without a SMART report showing little usage. SLC SSDs are another story. If you don't need much space, you can buy a used 64GB X25-E on eBay for $40 to $50 usually.

Second that.

Over here in EU you can get them for similar prices. A lot of sellers don't realize the SLC drives are special. I bought mine from someone actually charging more for the X25M than for the X25E because higher letter in alphabet...

Reply 17 of 34, by ph4nt0m

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dionb wrote:

I bought mine from someone actually charging more for the X25M than for the X25E because higher letter in alphabet...

Yes, many people don't realise what they are selling.

X25-E = Extreme Series
X25-M = Mainstream Series
X25-V = Value Series

My Active Sales on CPU-World

Reply 18 of 34, by gryffinwings

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ph4nt0m wrote:
gryffinwings wrote:

I just realized the Intel drive that I found was not the X25-E, it was the Intel X25-M, finding the X25-E much more expensive. Here's the one I found:

https://www.amazon.com/Intel-X25-M-160GB-Inte … rds=Intel+X25-E

I prefer not to buy used or refurbished MLC SSDs without a SMART report showing little usage. SLC SSDs are another story. If you don't need much space, you can buy a used 64GB X25-E on eBay for $40 to $50 usually.

Wow, you weren't kidding, that's a good place to pick one up.

Another question, I keep reading about TRIM, and how it extends drive life, but the X25-E doesn't have that, what do you do about that?

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.

Reply 19 of 34, by gryffinwings

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matze79 wrote:

I use a 3AWARE 9500 and a 40Gb Intel SSD inside my K6-2 😉

Nice, what did you use to adapt the drive for your board, an adapter?

Also what did you do to slim down the ribbon cables?

Main Computer: Custom - Intel 12900K, Asus Nvidia 3080 Ti, 64 GB DDR5.
Retro Computer: Packard Bell Legend I - AMD 286, 640KB RAM
Retro Computer: Dell Dimension 4400 - Pentium 4 2.8 GHz FSB 400 MHz, ATi Radeon 9600XT, Sound Blaster Live!, 768 MB RAM.