VOGONS


First post, by 0kool

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Have you ever expanded your collection of computers into the 80s, worked with some or never let it go from the day you bought it?
I would sure like to hear about your experience and problems, doubts and excitements while using it or considering a build. Cheers!

As any sane (word!) and forward (though backwards seems somewhat more appropriate in this instance) looking person, while still waiting to receive my VLB DX2 build parts my mind already began to wonder - what's next? Sure, I tend to keep my machines highly upgradeable, not only due to price and rarity of certain components, but probably even more so because of one universal truth I was lucky enough to learn - you won't value much the things you can get without effort. So it's not about the diminishing fun factor, but scalability.

Practicality:
Though I'd really like to own an IBM 5150 at some point, or even C64/Atari and whatnot, for now it's out of the question. For one, I'm not sure I can get engaged enough with the software/games of the time, so I mostly considering these to be collector items. Price is a consideration as well, but the main reason is that I'm moving around often and have somewhat limited space.

Quality and authenticity:
Most of the 286-386 motherboards I've seen (a fair number) were some generic looking clones with soldered processor. I'd imagine it was mass produced for the developing markets during the end of its life cycle (e.g. AMD DX40 386 boards well into mid90s). So I wouldn't consider a 286 board dated 1991 authentic enough.

Obvious options:
- 486 (non-VLB): Not quite 80s. Might be interesting, but too much overlap with DX2 build. Certainly doable.
- 386: Somehow I don't feel for 386. It's not that easy to find a good and appropriate case for this and anything older. Same goes for the "true" mobo (most of what's available are the aforementioned AMD40s or corroded), extension cards (=<'90)
- 286: I think this one is borderline practical for me (but the hardware itself is amusing). PC-Speaker only. No plans for VGA, so I'd have to get another monitor or a converter. While the mainboards seem to be pretty common, I expect anything worthy to cost.

I will consider getting some nice brand name machine instead of the DIY thing, if I could find something I like in mint condition.

Last edited by 0kool on 2018-11-11, 23:08. Edited 5 times in total.

Reply 1 of 11, by Baoran

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When it comes to those old PCs, I think 286 board from 1991 is quite authentic. I bought my first pc that was 286 in 1988 and it was still really expensive even if 386 had been around for a while and 486 would be released in 1989. I upgraded my 286 to 386 in 1992. Most people could only buy computers that were couple generations behind state of the art. I think Pentium was the first generation that became affordable soon after it was released at least in my country and I bought 90Mhz pentium in 1995 with windows 95.

Reply 2 of 11, by Jo22

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Baoran wrote:

Most people could only buy computers that were couple generations behind state of the art.
I think Pentium was the first generation that became affordable soon after it was released at least in my country and I bought 90Mhz
pentium in 1995 with windows 95.

I feel the same. More than often, we as kids got "the old stuff" our friends or realtives used before.
Just think of all the old wooden TV sets or little black-white TVs (portables) we used to play our video games on.

Perhaps I'm just a weird exception, but I had got a 286-12 with 4MiB, 1,44MB FD, CD-ROM drive and 16-Bit soundcard (pic).
And that was in the early-to-mid-90s. When our relatives and friends just got brand-new 486es (with VLB gfx and colour(!) printers).
The Pentium, while released in '93 on paper, was something I haven't seen in person until ca. the late 90s/2000s. A friend of mine, Felix,
had got such a Pentium to play with. It was in his father's office, I believe. We played that Freeware Super Mario game for DOS on it,
if memory serves.

Back in ~97 or so Shareware CDs still listed 486DX2-66 and Pentium 75/90 as a requirement, so it was still common I suppose.
On top of that, Windows 3.1 was mentioned on most software packages until early 2000s (programs still included optional 16-Bit binaries).
MS even included Win 3.1x updates on the Year 2000 CD (added € sign and fixed file manager).

The bottom line maybe it that "gamers" (my old English teach would go nuts, btw; it's "to play the game", so it must be "video game players")
were by far a different kind of people, living in their own world(s). However, in early 90s, tech was evolving very fast that motherboards included
upgrade options right from the start (just think of overdrive chips and MakeIt486 modules for 386 and even 286 PCs; see LGR video).
In contrast, normal users and casual gamers (me ?) likely continued old tech from years beforee, but upgraded them if needed.
That would also explain why some odd hardware configurations existed (Win95 on a 386SX25 w/ 250MB HDD, Hercules Monochrome and ZIP drive).

IMHO, I believe that the 286 had it's hayday in 1992. It finally got enough RAM, VGA games supported it, Windows 3.1 got released & supported it
and also extended the 16-bit era by a few years (Win16 games usally ran fine in 640x480 on a 286-12 or faster PC).

Edit: Edited. Links added.
Edit: Another edit. Some typos fixed.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 3 of 11, by The Serpent Rider

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I think Pentium was the first generation that became affordable soon after it was released at least in my country and I bought 90Mhz
pentium in 1995 with windows 95.

Pentium overall was not very affordable and 486 was still going strong.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 4 of 11, by Baoran

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The Serpent Rider wrote:

I think Pentium was the first generation that became affordable soon after it was released at least in my country and I bought 90Mhz
pentium in 1995 with windows 95.

Pentium overall was not very affordable and 486 was still going strong.

I don't remember how much it did cost, but it was the first pc I built from new parts and back then you saved a lot of money if you built the pc yourself instead of buying pre-built system. It had diamond stealth trio64 card, 16Mb of ram and intel motherboard. I can't have had that much money in 1995 so that is why I thought it must have been cheaper.
in 1992 I only upgraded the motherboard, cpu and ram of my 286 to 386 33Mhz 4Mb, but I kept all the other parts the same.

Reply 5 of 11, by dionb

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The Intel Pentium was released in 1993 and was most definitely not affordable. 1994 marked the move to 3.3V P54, but it wasn't until late 1995 - 2 years after first release - and the release of the i430FX chipset with PLC cache and EDO support that performance became compelling and prices almost affordable, although until 1996 you still had better price / performance from a late 486.

Reply 6 of 11, by sf78

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I did recently venture into the 80's with a bunch of 5150 and 286 machines. The use has been very limited as I don't really cherish any PC game released before 1990. After that when 386/486 became the norm and the whole VGA/SB/ROLAND thing kicked in PC could finally offer something the cheap home computers couldn't. The only thing I would consider from an enthusiast point of view is a fast 286/EGA/ROLAND combo to play early SIERRA adventures. Then again, nothing prevents you from enjoying them with a more modern rig, but as a late 80's gaming platform that could be something you might be interested in.

Reply 7 of 11, by jheronimus

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I believe the rule of thumb for me is if I didn't use the platform back in the day, I'm not going to really enjoy using it now. Nostalgia is the defining factor, and if you didn't own something back then, you won't feel attached to it.

Case in point — I only started playing on a 486, so I missed the really old 80s games. I honestly hate PC speaker music, and I don't appreciate CGA graphics (has to be at least EGA). It wasn't good even at the time — there were better gaming machines, with better graphics and sound. As a result, I tend to slowly source 80s parts, but I'm not actively searching for them and I'm not ready to pay a lot of money for them.

At some point I "dipped my toes" into the 80s gaming with a 286 build with an EGA screen. It's a lot easier than XT — you can use 16bit ISA, regular IDE drives and 1.44MB floppies. However, I played around with some games only to realise I don't really enjoy them. I don't see the point in running VGA-capable games in EGA mode, and EGA-only games tend to use PC speaker music. Also, I'm not a big fan of arcades, so I ended up playing text-mode adventures like Amnesia and Zork and role-playing games like Ultima. Non of them require a dedicated build.

I have a lot of hardware for an XT build — basically everything except for XT keyboard. I just don't see the point in making such a build — there will probably be no games I'm interested in.

386 is another story. To me, it's the time when PC gaming really started to shine. I have a Roland MT-32 and SB Pro2, so I can actually have a very nice experience on a 386. However, like the OP said, finding a proper motherboard is really hard. I ended up getting a PC Chips M321 and it really was the best thing I could find for a DX-33 build:

pc-chips_m321_rev.2.7_386_cache_motherboard-600x523.jpg

I already have this build up and running, and as soon as I get an MPU controller for it, I'll make it a whole post on Vogons where I'll talk about 386 motherboards at length 🤣

All in all I feel like 386DX33 is the oldest platform I need to own. I love the looks of older hardware, though, so I imagine that if I ever manage to get my hands on an IBM 5160 or 5170, I'll just upgrade it to 386 😀

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Reply 8 of 11, by PTherapist

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I had a Commodore 64 long before I started with my first PC - an 8088 IBM compatible in the early 1990s. I also still own a ZX Spectrum and am looking to buy another Commodore 64 to replace my old one which I can't seem to find.

With regards to just PCs though, my old 8088 is long dead/gone and I'd never owned a 286 before, so last year I built both an 8088 PC and a 286.

The 12MHz 286 with 1MB RAM covers what the old 8088 could do a little faster, whilst the 8088 I built using the motherboard from an IBM 5160, 4.77MHz & 256KB RAM covers the earlier speed sensitive games and also gives good use for legacy hardware such as an MFM Hard Drive & 5.25" Floppy Drive.

The 286 build was easy, whilst the 8088 gave me the most problems, mostly due to the requirement of an XT keyboard. Once I'd sorted the keyboard and got the I/O controllers working, things got much easier.

The 8088 also has a CGA Graphics Card installed and can run games that even DOSBox struggles with.

Reply 9 of 11, by Baoran

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jheronimus wrote:

I believe the rule of thumb for me is if I didn't use the platform back in the day, I'm not going to really enjoy using it now. Nostalgia is the defining factor, and if you didn't own something back then, you won't feel attached to it.

Case in point — I only started playing on a 486, so I missed the really old 80s games. I honestly hate PC speaker music, and I don't appreciate CGA graphics (has to be at least EGA). It wasn't good even at the time — there were better gaming machines, with better graphics and sound. As a result, I tend to slowly source 80s parts, but I'm not actively searching for them and I'm not ready to pay a lot of money for them.

I skipped 486 completely in 90s and jumped from 386 to pentium, but for some reason I have mostly been building 486s. I think it was because 486 felt like a faster 386 that I dreamed about back in the day. Since I got pentium in 1995, I always connected that with win95 and 486 would been the ultimate dos pc that I dreamed about when I had 286 or 386. That is probably why I am so interested in 486 even if I never had one in the past, it would allow the games that I used to play on 386 to work better.

Reply 10 of 11, by jheronimus

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Baoran wrote:

I skipped 486 completely in 90s and jumped from 386 to pentium, but for some reason I have mostly been building 486s. I think it was because 486 felt like a faster 386 that I dreamed about back in the day. Since I got pentium in 1995, I always connected that with win95 and 486 would been the ultimate dos pc that I dreamed about when I had 286 or 386. That is probably why I am so interested in 486 even if I never had one in the past, it would allow the games that I used to play on 386 to work better.

Yes, I know that feeling 😀 Kind of a different scenario, though — you've used an earlier platform, so you just want something better/faster now because you couldn't afford it back then.

For me a similar platform would be Socket 8/Pentium Pro. I've started gaming on a 486 laptop in 1996. No audio, no CD drive, no 3D graphics. The best/most expensive x86 hardware at the time would be Pentium Pro. This is why this platform has a special meaning for me — I don't think even scientists/engineers had a Pentium Pro in my hometown in 1995-1996. So you can imagine what would having a Pentium Pro just for games would be like in 1996.

At the same time Pentium Pro hardly makes any practical sense — a simple Pentium 2 machine would be able to do all that and more while costing a fraction of a Socket 8 machine. These chips are really rare now.

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Reply 11 of 11, by chinny22

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I think the nostalgia apply to when you got into computers -1 generation
eg I also started out on a 486 in 1995 but a lot of the games I got initially were released upto 5 years earlier, so 386 territory.
That said I have no desire for a 386, as the 486 is either able to play or already too slow for any games I care about so I know a 386 or earlier will sit unused.

We had a Apple IIe late 80's? up till 95 and can count the games I actually want to play again on 1 hand, so emulation is enough for those few games