VOGONS


Game pads for DOS ?

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Reply 20 of 45, by brostenen

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dr_st wrote:

My personal experience with a Gravis Gamepad was miserable. It is overly sensitive and starts registering diagonals when you are trying to move left or right. Maybe it's a flaw of specific units, or one that develops with age, but I learned here on VOGONS that I was far from the only one experiencing such issues.

Not to mention the size of them. They are like those annoying genesis, snes, nes and master system controllers. Too damn small to be able to play more than 15 minutes with, unless you love the pain when you get cramps in your hands. They are sadistic tools from hell.

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Reply 21 of 45, by Scali

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brostenen wrote:

I dont know about you. But I played Playstation in 1995.

Well, the Gravis Gamepad is a few years older than that (1991), and was probably inspired on the SNES controller. I suppose the original NES is the platform that made gamepads popular.
I'm of the joystick generation myself, with the Atari VCS being my first taste of video gaming, then a C64. When I got a PC, I used a 15-pin to 9-pin Atari/C64 converter so I could still use my C64/Amiga sticks on the PC. Those analog joysticks were rubbish.
I suppose that converter would also allow me to use any gamepads made for C64, Amiga, Amstrad CPC or Sega, because they used the same 9-pin connector. The converter supported two firebuttons.

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Reply 22 of 45, by dr_st

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brostenen wrote:

Not to mention the size of them. They are like those annoying genesis, snes, nes and master system controllers. Too damn small to be able to play more than 15 minutes with, unless you love the pain when you get cramps in your hands. They are sadistic tools from hell.

I think they might actually be good for kids with small hands. Remember that video games were originally intended for children. Hard to believe, isn't it? 🤣

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Reply 23 of 45, by Plasma

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brostenen wrote:
Plasma wrote:

I don't agree with the Gravis Gamepad hate...they work fine and we were using them long before Playstation and XBox existed. Some games work better with gamepads than others. Platformers are great. Racing, not so much.

I dont know about you. But I played Playstation in 1995.

That's nice. Gravis Gamepad came out in 1991.

Reply 24 of 45, by brostenen

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Scali wrote:
Well, the Gravis Gamepad is a few years older than that (1991), and was probably inspired on the SNES controller. I suppose the […]
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brostenen wrote:

I dont know about you. But I played Playstation in 1995.

Well, the Gravis Gamepad is a few years older than that (1991), and was probably inspired on the SNES controller. I suppose the original NES is the platform that made gamepads popular.
I'm of the joystick generation myself, with the Atari VCS being my first taste of video gaming, then a C64. When I got a PC, I used a 15-pin to 9-pin Atari/C64 converter so I could still use my C64/Amiga sticks on the PC. Those analog joysticks were rubbish.
I suppose that converter would also allow me to use any gamepads made for C64, Amiga, Amstrad CPC or Sega, because they used the same 9-pin connector. The converter supported two firebuttons.

Most analog joysticks were rubbish as well. True that. CF Flightsticks were always high quality, there might have been good joysticks before Logitech released the Wingman Extreme around 94/95. They were great and all that, yet I wore mine out within one year. Inspired by SNES controller you say. Hmmm.... After some googling, then I can only say that it is still a torture instrument. At least for me, because my hands are 21 centimeters long from wrist to the tip of my middle finger. Even the Playstation inspired late-90's Gravis gamepad are a thing of pure evil.

Plasma wrote:
brostenen wrote:
Plasma wrote:

I don't agree with the Gravis Gamepad hate...they work fine and we were using them long before Playstation and XBox existed. Some games work better with gamepads than others. Platformers are great. Racing, not so much.

I dont know about you. But I played Playstation in 1995.

That's nice. Gravis Gamepad came out in 1991.

That I did not know. Never saw any before late 90's. I guess Gravis knew that nobody would buy anything like that in my country, before Windows98 era. On the other hand. Why would they sell something like that, when everyone wanted a real joystick.

Don't eat stuff off a 15 year old never cleaned cpu cooler.
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Reply 25 of 45, by brostenen

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dr_st wrote:
brostenen wrote:

Not to mention the size of them. They are like those annoying genesis, snes, nes and master system controllers. Too damn small to be able to play more than 15 minutes with, unless you love the pain when you get cramps in your hands. They are sadistic tools from hell.

I think they might actually be good for kids with small hands. Remember that video games were originally intended for children. Hard to believe, isn't it? 🤣

Yup... From my wrist to the tip of my middle finger, there are 21 centimeters. I want big things, like a big mouse and things like that. The only mouse that fits perfect in my hands. Are the Microsoft intellimouse 3.0 or any other of that size.

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Reply 27 of 45, by Intel486dx33

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Currently I am going to use a Gravis game pad with game port connection.
Is this good enough ?

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Reply 28 of 45, by dr_st

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Gee, I wonder if you just missed the lengthy discussion specifically about Gravis gamepads that just took place in this very thread.

Read it, then form your own opinion.

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Reply 29 of 45, by Rawit

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Had a Gravis Gamepad (dogbone) for years, never had the diagonals issues with it. I thought that was a problem with the Gravis Gamepad Pro (the PSX controller lookalike). I've tried some 15-pin gamepads over the years but most of them are kind of disappointing when you're used to console pads:

- The QuickShot models with 4 or 6 buttons feel flimsy and it feels like the buttons don't spring back as fast as they should;
- The Saitek X6-31M feels a bit better but suffers from that spray-on rubber coating that gets in the way of everything when it goes bad;
- The Interact Propad 6 is ok, make sure you get the black one with thumbpad placed regularly.

Gamepad of choice right now is the Interact PC ProgramPad (the one with the screen). They are from the same manufacturer as the SN ProPads for the SNES. The thumbpad and buttons are pretty decent and it comes close to the SNES controller in terms of response.

Gamepad I still want to try is the PC Fighter 6 which came bundled with Street Fighter/MegaMan for DOS. From what I've read it should be the bee's knees, but the times I saw one for sale they asked near 100 dollars for a yellowed/scratched one. And it looks like it might be based off a QuickShot model, which in that case it would suck.

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Reply 30 of 45, by dr_st

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Rawit wrote:

Gamepad I still want to try is the PC Fighter 6 which came bundled with Street Fighter/MegaMan for DOS. From what I've read it should be the bee's knees, but the times I saw one for sale they asked near 100 dollars for a yellowed/scratched one.

There are some for sale on eBay US right now, for much less than $100 and seem to be in reasonable condition. Whether you want one or not, I don't know - this review seems to trash it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW4BfUkHyN0

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Reply 32 of 45, by badmojo

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The dogbone Gravis has its place I say - Keen and Jill of the Jungle are examples of games where I think it’s suitable. Not better than a keyboard, but no worse. When real accuracy is required, for PoP for example, then it’s back to keyboard for me.

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Reply 33 of 45, by SirNickity

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I don't know about you guys, but after an hour or two of Warcraft / Starcraft, I would love to have ANYTHING other than a keyboard for directional input. Especially when I'm playing on a couch, with a keyboard in my lap, using my left hand to control the arrow keys on the right side of the keyboard. It doesn't get a lot more awkward than that. Although, TBH, I'm not sure a game pad would be ideal either, since the right hand is on a mouse.

Platformers are definitely better with game pads. Arrows + space / ctrl / shift? Yuck. I did grow up using a keyboard as a game input device, but it's quite obvious why Nintendo, Sony, and Sega went with something (relatively) ergonomic and hand-shaped instead of a keyboard.

FPSs got a lot better when they were mixed KB / mouse affairs. Never could quite get used to console controllers, even with dual analog sticks.

Still wondering what I'm missing with joysticks. It seems like all the games that SHOULD be good with a joystick (Mech Warrior, Wing Commander, etc.) are either spazzy or unresponsive to the point I just want my keys and mouse back. I've thought about building an in-line microcontroller-based translator to modify the linear response of joystick's range of motion to something with a more exponential curve -- just to see if it helps.

Reply 34 of 45, by badmojo

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SirNickity wrote:

Still wondering what I'm missing with joysticks. It seems like all the games that SHOULD be good with a joystick (Mech Warrior, Wing Commander, etc.) are either spazzy or unresponsive to the point I just want my keys and mouse back. I've thought about building an in-line microcontroller-based translator to modify the linear response of joystick's range of motion to something with a more exponential curve -- just to see if it helps.

Yeah joysticks were a mystery to me for a long time, but I think that's because I only used (could afford) crappy ones back in the day. A good CH stick or a Sidewinder 3D Pro are great in the right game. Kinda related I mostly use an SMS gamepad on my C64 and where a joystick is the better option I use a SlikStik - a tiny little thing with microswitches. Again I tried a lot of joysticks on that platform before finding one which wasn't frustrating to use.

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Reply 35 of 45, by Plasma

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SirNickity wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but after an hour or two of Warcraft / Starcraft, I would love to have ANYTHING other than a keyboa […]
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I don't know about you guys, but after an hour or two of Warcraft / Starcraft, I would love to have ANYTHING other than a keyboard for directional input. Especially when I'm playing on a couch, with a keyboard in my lap, using my left hand to control the arrow keys on the right side of the keyboard. It doesn't get a lot more awkward than that. Although, TBH, I'm not sure a game pad would be ideal either, since the right hand is on a mouse.

Platformers are definitely better with game pads. Arrows + space / ctrl / shift? Yuck. I did grow up using a keyboard as a game input device, but it's quite obvious why Nintendo, Sony, and Sega went with something (relatively) ergonomic and hand-shaped instead of a keyboard.

FPSs got a lot better when they were mixed KB / mouse affairs. Never could quite get used to console controllers, even with dual analog sticks.

Still wondering what I'm missing with joysticks. It seems like all the games that SHOULD be good with a joystick (Mech Warrior, Wing Commander, etc.) are either spazzy or unresponsive to the point I just want my keys and mouse back. I've thought about building an in-line microcontroller-based translator to modify the linear response of joystick's range of motion to something with a more exponential curve -- just to see if it helps.

You may need a speed-compensated game port if you are trying to run old games on a faster computer. If the counter used for determining the axis positions doesn't have enough bits, it can overflow, making the input erratic.

Reply 36 of 45, by dr_st

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SirNickity wrote:

Platformers are definitely better with game pads. Arrows + space / ctrl / shift? Yuck.

Well, no, they are not. This is just awkward for you. 😀 I have many games that I play with Ctrl/Shift/Alt/Space and it is really a fine scheme for a single player. You have one hand on the arrows (or numpad, if this is what you prefer, which I do), and the other on the control buttons. Ctrl/Alt work best as primary/secondary keys, Shift as a tertiary and Space as a rarely used fourth, since it's rather far.

Space works well for games that only have one action button, because it's big and centered. For games that have two (typically - jump and attack), I prefer Ctrl+Alt.

For some other games I realized that I like the ESDF (kinda like shifted WASD) for action buttons. This is how Lost Vikings and Blackthorne are played; it seems strange to use letters for someone who is accustomed to Ctrl/Alt/Shift/Space, but it turns out to be amazingly easy, which is a great thing, since neither Vikings nor Blackthorne allow keys to be customized. ESDF (or WASD) are all closer together and put less stress on the tendons than Ctrl/Shift/Alt/Space. I found out that this is my preferred control scheme for games like Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends.

Another scheme is to use only one side of the keyboard - numpad to move and the 6-key block (Ins/Home/PgUp/Del/End/PgDn) for controls (standard for SSF2T, and matches its 6-button scheme perfectly) or for those who prefer left hand for direction, right for action - flip it - arrows for control, numpad for actions. The DOS versions of Mortal Kombat (I and II) come with this setup by default because it mimics closely its Arcade control setup, where the 5 action buttons are arranged in an X - the keyboard equivalent are NumPad 7,9,5,1,3. Still, I found that I just greatly prefer using the numpad for directions, so I change the default, but many players I know stuck with the standard.

Such a one-side scheme allows for 2 players to play on the same keyboard (the second player will use the letter keys on the left side), but it of course requires a good keyboard that doesn't jam when multiple keys are pressed (has good key rollover support).

Mortal Kombat is actually one of the games that almost provably easier to play with a keyboard than a gamepad - unlike most fighters, it uses a lot of tapping and repeated/reversed directions. Try something like Left-Right-Left-Right-Punch, or Left-Right-Right-Right-Kick with the arrow keys, and compare to using just your thumb on the pad.

Being a keyboard player does mean that you have to be picky about the keyboards. In addition to the rollover requirements, I also must have a standard layout that doesn't shuffle my navigation block, puts the arrows in strange places or removes the numpad. In particular, laptop keyboards are a no-no (but they are all crap with like 2-key rollover and jam like crazy even for a single player anyways), and one thing I really can't stand is the ISO (Europe) layout with the small Left Shift. This is something I totally can't understand - never mind gaming like this, it actually makes typing a torture!

Anyways, the trouble with keyboard control, is because there are so many options, experienced keyboard players have schemes with they prefer. So when a game does not let one customize keys - it's bad. Sometimes very bad, if the default scheme is awkward.

SirNickity wrote:

I did grow up using a keyboard as a game input device, but it's quite obvious why Nintendo, Sony, and Sega went with something (relatively) ergonomic and hand-shaped instead of a keyboard.

Well, it's not necessarily due to the keyboard having bad ergonomics. A controller just has to solve a very specific task, so it is naturally designed with only a small number of buttons, which tend to be well marked. This makes the learning curve a bit simpler and it is why many players start with a controller and stay with it, never caring to become proficient with a keyboard. A keyboard solves another task altogether. The fact that it can also be used as a game controller is almost a by-product, but given the sheer number of keys, it can actually be very versatile and useful for games that don't require any analog precision.

SirNickity wrote:

I don't know about you guys, but after an hour or two of Warcraft / Starcraft, I would love to have ANYTHING other than a keyboard for directional input. Especially when I'm playing on a couch, with a keyboard in my lap, using my left hand to control the arrow keys on the right side of the keyboard. It doesn't get a lot more awkward than that. Although, TBH, I'm not sure a game pad would be ideal either, since the right hand is on a mouse.

I know you wrote this first, but I specifically left it for last, because it has some interesting points. I assume you use the arrow keys in Warcraft/Starcraft for moving the map? This is a good example of a situation where the designers came up with an imperfect control scheme which is not configurable. Basically you need a mouse, which takes one hand, and then if you want to use keyboard to move the map, the keys are on one side, whereas if you want to use it to execute commands (A for Attack, S for Stop, etc.), you need to use the other side of the keyboard. So your non-mouse hand has to move all over the keyboard.

Really, Warcraft, and especially Starcraft, make so much use of shortcut keys that there is almost no escape from traveling all over the keyboard. As you said - a controller wouldn't really help you either, because you cannot avoid the mouse, and there are simply not enough buttons on the controller for all the shortcuts.

But you do illustrate an important advantage of controllers - the ability to use them in your lap while playing on the floor/couch. This is a very valid argument. I will accept it and use it in the future. 😀

In the early days of PC gaming, computers were rarely connected to televisions, and the screens were small, so it was not really relevant; to play the game you almost had to sit at the desk anyways. Nowadays, with huge LCD TVs, couch-playing becomes a thing for PC as well. You can use a wireless keyboard/mouse, but you still need a stand/mini-desk to use them properly - it's not comfortable on your lap. 🤣

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Reply 37 of 45, by SirNickity

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Plasma wrote:

You may need a speed-compensated game port if you are trying to run old games on a faster computer.

MS SideWinder 3D Pro with Wing Commander IV on a Pentium 166 in Win 95's DOS mode using a SB AWE32's game port; and the Windows (Mystique) version of Mech Warrior 2 on the same PC. It's been a couple months, but IIRC, the problem I had was this...

In WC4, I would get to the mock dogfight with Maniac (after the opening bar scene), and he would slaughter me in like 10 seconds because I could never move as quickly or as accurately as I could with a mouse. It felt like those wooden puzzle games where you have the marble rolling around in a labyrinth and you're trying to avoid the holes, except the holes are constantly flying behind you so they can shoot at you without getting hit.

In MW2, it just seemed awkward. I could probably get it to work better if I had spent more time calibrating the stick (it still had a little residual wander in it, which would move the HUD over the course of 10 seconds or so), and with some practice. I haven't played in years, so I was trying to remember all the commands and figure out how to control my mech to get close enough without slamming into other mechs, and to keep moving around instead of standing there like I had a target painted on my forehead. 😉

Reply 38 of 45, by brostenen

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Intel486dx33 wrote:

Currently I am going to use a Gravis game pad with game port connection.
Is this good enough ?

That is exactly the torture instrument, that I was talking about.... Try using it with these hands.

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Give me a keyboard for PC gaming. And mouse if we are talking games like Civilization.

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Reply 39 of 45, by feipoa

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Does anyone know which DOS games can take advantage of the extra buttons on the Gravis Gamepad Pro? Can all or most Windows games use the extra buttons? And for DOS games which cannot make use of the Pro's extra buttons, are there tricks to getting these buttons working in DOS or DOS games run from within Windows?

I noticed that the Gamepad Pro has this 15-pin through port, which I assume is for correcting a 2nd player controller. Is there a limit to how many additional gamepads can be connected? Must it be another Pro, or will the standard Gamepad work as well? Does the through-port work in DOS? I have used a gamepad, but not the Pro. I have the Pro sitting in my closet and was hoping to test it out.

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