VOGONS


First post, by Socket3

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Hello everyone. I've been stalking this forum for a few months now - this is my first post (please be kind 😊 ).

I got a hold of a Hyundai Super-16TE XT Clone in working order, but I can't get an AT keyboard to work with it... I read somewhere that some XT machines will only work with an XT keyboard witch uses the same DIN connector as AT keyboards - sadly I don't have such a device, and the only AT keyboard I have is missing the AT/XT switch present on older models.

But I'm wondering, since the Super-16TE is a rather recent XT clone (made in 1987 I think?) does it still require an XT compatible keyboard? Does it by any chance use a proprietary keyboard standard like early Amstrad machines? Can I replace the keyboard controller to get it to work with a regular AT keyboard?

Last edited by Socket3 on 2019-04-19, 23:29. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 9, by Vynix

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Yes it requires an XT keyboard, and no you can't just hack and slash a XT machine to accept a AT keyboard. The protocols are too different.

Proud owner of a Shuttle HOT-555A 430VX motherboard and two wonderful retro laptops, namely a Compaq Armada 1700 [nonfunctional] and a HP Omnibook XE3-GC [fully working :p]

Reply 2 of 9, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I’d be interested to see what you do with your Hyundai Super-16TE system.

Have you seen this thread? Hyundai SUPER-16TE xt clone: restoration and info

I recently aquired a close cousin - it’s the Hyundai Super-16. Not sure if it’s older but the motherboard layout is definately different. Just waiting on an ISA vga card to arrive to test it out.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 3 of 9, by Socket3

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
BinaryDemon wrote:

I’d be interested to see what you do with your Hyundai Super-16TE system.

Have you seen this thread? Hyundai SUPER-16TE xt clone: restoration and info

I recently aquired a close cousin - it’s the Hyundai Super-16. Not sure if it’s older but the motherboard layout is definitely different. Just waiting on an ISA vga card to arrive to test it out.

I got the machine with a 20MB Seagate MFM HDD, a 5.25" FDD 640kb of ram and some proprietary ISA cards for interfacing with an old medical imaging machine ( a CT scanner) One of the cards has what seems like a 8086 CPU soldered on. Since I don't own any EGA/CGA cards or monitors, I installed the only 8 bit ISA compatible video card I had - a 256kb OAK VGA card, and it seems to work perfectly (well, since I don't have an XT keyboard and the machine has no OS, I only got as far as the post screen). In fact I'm not sure the PC ever had a video card installed, since it had a seal on it when I opened it up.

As for build plans, I have a SB 1.5 but it's untested. If it doesn't work I have a SB 1.0 clone witch I know works. I don't know what condition the HDD is in - it does spin up and seems to have some activity, but again, without a keyboard I can only get so far. It does show "1 Hard Disk" message at post, so that's promising. I do have a 30MB MFM drive if the one that came with the system proves to be bad. Apart from a sound card I don't plan on adding anything else to it. Maybe a NEC V20? But the Siemens 8088 inside should be fast enough for what I want to run on it (dyna blaster, prince, keen and so on). But first I need to get a hold of an XT keyboard, witch is extremely hard to do in my country.

I don't know what condition the HDD is in or if the PC has other issues since I found it in the corner of a storeroom in the radiology department at the hospital I work at, so I got it for free.

I've never had an XT machine - I grew up with a 486 - that was my first computer, so I was pretty happy when I cracked the hyundai open and saw the CPU driving it.

I had a look at the thread - I don't have the tools (EPROM programmer) or the time to build an AT to XT converter, and my only AT keyboard doesn't have that XT-AT switch. I opened it up, and while on the PCB there are two unpopulated areas where a SW1 and SW2 would go, shorting them does absolutely nothing. The keyboard won't work on the XT but it will still work on my 286.

Quick side-note - does anyone know if this machine would support a 8086 CPU? Are the 8088 and 8086 pin compatible? I'm thinking of de-soldering the 8086 and trying it in this XT...

Reply 4 of 9, by BinaryDemon

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

8088 and 8086 are not interchangeable, 8088 supports 16 but bus, 8088 only supports 8 bit bus. I was considering the NEC v20 as well.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 5 of 9, by Socket3

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I had a look on ebay for a XT compatible keyboard - most are from the US - and while the prices are OK for the most part (30-40$), shipping costs are not... I can't afford to spend 100$ on a keyboard, that's just way over my budget... The ones found in europe are no better - UK and Germany sellers charge 100-110$ for a noname XT compatible keyboard, plus 10-15$ shipping so that's even more expensive... How disappointing.

Does anyone know where I can buy a AT to XT adapter - either pre-made or as a kit with a pre-programmed IC? I have soldering equipment (and the skill to assemble it) but I lack an eprom programer and the knowledge/time to experiment with such things.

Reply 6 of 9, by keropi

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

^ you can always build this or find one pre-made - this is what I used
https://hackaday.com/2017/01/21/attoxtkeyboard/

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 7 of 9, by kool kitty89

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I'm not sure if this is already common knowledge, but a lot (if not most) AT keyboards have AT/XT mode switches somewhere on them, often hidden under one of the folding legs/feet. (sometimes marked A and X, or sometimes 8088/286 among other similarly implicit notation)

I'm not sure about real IBM Model M or other PC/AT IBM keyboards do the same thing (or maybe AT-compatible Model F keyboards), but it seems common among off the shelf/clone keyboards, especially from the late 80s in the era of turbo XT clones and baby AT 286 and 386 motherboards. (which also makes lots of sense, since most baby AT boards could fit into XT clone cases and baby AT cases themselves were backwards compatible with XT clone board mounting points, so having keyboards that could seamlessly switch between the two would be really attractive for upgrades and system builders/botiques of the period)

Though there's now "USB, PC/AT, PS/2 to XT Keyboard adapter" type modules available on ebay in the $30-40 range, which seem pretty flexible. (albeit they don't look like they do USB to AT as well, which would be way more interesting)
Simpler PS/2 to XT adapters are a bit cheaper (sub $30 right now, shipped).

Reply 9 of 9, by kool kitty89

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Also a correction on my part: it seems the AT/XT switch is more common with mechanical keyboards and there's a fair number of early/mid 90s era AT 5-pin DIN plug style boards out there that don't have it. Some of those might also be auto-switching .

(the Tandy Enhanced 101 key keyboard supposedly is, and is a variant of the Fujitsu FKB4700 series, but I'm not sure if the generic/consumer FKB4700s are auto-switching, too; some late model Tandy boards use PS/2 connectors but are still apparently XT compatible and some of their computers use the XT protocol but have that connector natively, so it's even more confusing on that end: but cool for universal keyboards with a simple passive adapter).

I've got an FKB4700 (or 4725) that's working, but haven't tried it in an XT board. (didn't know the Tandy relation when I was messing around with it and testing the Turbo XT board I recently got)

Additionally, some cases have AT/XT switch holes in them from earlier models that go to nowhere, just bare PCB exposed underneath, so you should double-check with ebay sellers if the picture is ambiguous.

I'm not sure, but I don't think many or any of the lower-end rubber dome or similar technology boards of the early 90s tend to be auto-switching, but could be totally wrong here. (there's also some fairly cheaply made/flimsy case designed boards that use discrete mechanical switches, but those seem to more often have AT/XT switches present for whatever reason, maybe the controller ICs used more typically with those types switches has something to do with it: the older, cheap keyboard types that tend to be switchable are the foam and foil ones, and while not great for typing and potentially failure-prone due to foam degradation, a lot of those seem to be fairly collectable these days even if not uncommon)

There's also some really, really nice mechanical keyboards that have been selling at somewhat reasonable prices lately (though it seems like there were bigger batches in January and February) if you don't mind a bit of extra space eaten up. The Northgate Omneykey (and a few other northgate models) have been showing up a lot at auction lately, and if you're looking for a geneuine XT and PC/AT style key layout: those tend to have both the left-hand function keys and (sometimes) top row as well. Some have a model M style cursor key T arrangement and others have a diamond cursor key layout embedded in the middle of the navigation keys. I think they all have the big, AT style enter key and split right shift/backslash arrangement)

Those might have dried up, but they might pop up again. (a lot tend to be overpriced and some dirty ones went for not crazy, but not cheap prices IMO, especially if the buyer wanted a nice mechanical board given alps switches are nice, but don't hold up well to heavy dirt: they tend to get rough/gritty/stiff feeling, though I don't think they tend to fail)

A lot of ebay listings erroneously have 'clicky' or 'mechanical' in the titles too, so be aware of that. (though if the model number or FCC ID is visible or listed, they're often easy to find more details about)

There's also plenty of non-clicky mechanical keyboards (and linear key switches were really common in the early home computer era: lots of Radio Shack/Tandy, Atari, Apple, and Commodore boards that used those along with flat-top or domed membrane or chicklet keyes on the cost-saving models). Same for a lot of late 70s and early 80s terminal keyboards, plus lots of weird/exotic mechanisms.

for example:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1993-Identit … er/193307504874?

I got one like that on the off chance it would be XT compatible, but there's no switch. I didn't pay near that much though and while it was loose, it's in good shape. (unusual, very quiet, very tactile, non-clacky dome with slider keys, so kind of a curiosity at least)

But searching the FCC ide quickly turned this up (after the fact).
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Monterey_K208
(turns out it's a rebrand/variant of that board)

OTOH, if XT compatibility is the only requirement (and working condition, regardless of look/feel/etc), there's probably a wider array of 80s vintage boards that are compatible that can be had for cheaper. You just get some nicer surprise unknown/mystery listings mixed in ... and lots of overpriced crap, of course. (just browse through a few different keyword searches, if you're using ebay, with 'old' 'used' 'vintage' etc ... you can try 'mechanical' or 'clicky' in there too and see if any cheap listings pop up that turn out to be something interesting)

And sometimes you'll get old rubber dome, some other odd membrane + slider design, or foam and foil based boards (or discrete mechanical contact switch boards that are known but generally unliked) that are listed as 'mechanical' or such, but actually at a reasonable price for what they are.

Foam and foil boards also have unlimited key rollover, so if there's any need for that there's a plus there. (and degraded foam still tends to register keypresses, but feels awful) I'm not sure there's much XT-compatible games or other software out there that really demands that feature, even though the original IBM model F itself features such.

The Deskthority wiki and forums seem like a pretty good source of info for this stuff. (I finally figured out what my/Dad's old boards were, too, more or less: though one or two might be unknown/unlisted variants) I suspect all 3 AT/XT boards were bought from one of the local PC/electronics surplus warehouses back in the day.

I think geekhack and vintage computer federation came up with some useful threads on some keyboard related stuff I was searching for.

Also, aside from very early Model M boards (and the Model F AT), IBM keyboards are noted to not be auto-switching or switchable.

I think this topic ended up making me geek out more over old keyboards, and certainly found out a lot more than I knew a month or two ago. (makes me sad for another thing I didn't sort through the bargain bin for at Weird Stuff when it was around ... or the freeby bin outside: I do have an old Keytronic board from there, pretty nice for a rubber dome board and better matrix mapping/rollover than my Silitek mechanical board: Apolloboy 'upgraded' from the Silitek board he'd borrowed after getting frustrated with conflicting keymaps in several Doom engine games, though that's also a problem the Model M tends to have)

I'd also have thought some late-gen XT clone system boards switched to the AT interface, but if any did they seem to be rare. Maybe the cost of an AT/PS2 compatible keyboard controller IC wasn't worth it, especially with the highly integrated nature of the late 80s era Turbo XT boards. I guess that's part of why a fair number of keyboards continued to feature XT compatible modes even into the early 90s (that and Tandy computers using it), though actual 90s vintage ones are probably rare and definitely hit or miss these days.

I suppose white-box PC builders/sellers and home builders would've liked that flexibility, too. (build an XT class system in a baby AT case with universal keyboard, potentially with an 8-bit VGA card installed, so you could do a board+CPU upgrade and opt to change nothing else) Or not even a baby AT case, but an XT clone compatible one given most baby AT boards have XT mounting hole spacing, too.