Since its 12V rail is out of spec, I'd try replacing the power supply first rather than the motherboard.

STX wrote:

Since its 12V rail is out of spec, I'd try replacing the power supply first rather than the motherboard.

Yeah it was reading 12.80v in the bios. I actually put in a different PSU to test it, and now it's reading 12.67v, but I'm still having severe issues.

But that's the thing though, the PSU was brand new sealed! Is it just as unsafe to buy new equipment versus used from this era?

Why would anyone opt for an old PSU when the modern ones do the exact same thing? It's not like it is adding anything to a retro build, it is just an absolutely boring piece of hardware that provides power. Do modern ones not have ATX and Molex connectors anymore?

blurks wrote:

Why would anyone opt for an old PSU when the modern ones do the exact same thing? It's not like it is adding anything to a retro build, it is just an absolutely boring piece of hardware that provides power. Do modern ones not have ATX and Molex connectors anymore?

They make adapters for those:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4

There's really no reason to use old standard-sized power supplies anymore (even AT supplies can be replaced with ATX PSUs and adapters). Unless you know for sure that you need a specific number of amps on the +5v rail and need an older unit to get that, but those situations are going to be very rare. It also isn't that hard to find a more modern unit that has 30A on the +5v rail, which is plenty for almost any system.

Ozzuneoj wrote:

They make adapters for those: https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4 […]
Show full quote

blurks wrote:

Why would anyone opt for an old PSU when the modern ones do the exact same thing? It's not like it is adding anything to a retro build, it is just an absolutely boring piece of hardware that provides power. Do modern ones not have ATX and Molex connectors anymore?

They make adapters for those:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4

There's really no reason to use old standard-sized power supplies anymore (even AT supplies can be replaced with ATX PSUs and adapters). Unless you know for sure that you need a specific number of amps on the +5v rail and need an older unit to get that, but those situations are going to be very rare. It also isn't that hard to find a more modern unit that has 30A on the +5v rail, which is plenty for almost any system.

After about thirty minutes of shopping on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg, the best PSU I could find had 24A on +5V; it was a 750W. There was a Startech 300w with 30A, but it appeared to be a 15-year-old model. Probably has been sitting in a warehouse for that long.

Also, wouldn't completely loading down the +5V rail on a modern power supply cause load balancing issues? From what I understand, they just aren't designed for that kind of load.

I'm still also curious: is it safe to buy a 15+ year old "new old stock" motherboard, or are the caps going to be almost certainly dead on arrival?

Maybe the only mistake you made was not to keep in mind that you need some minimum load on the 12V rail, too.
Maybe a second HDD will be sufficient to provide some minimum load of, say, 1 ampere?

Personally, I prefer good AT power supplies over ATX ones - just to keep a sort of minimum of period authenticity.

accaris wrote:

After about thirty minutes of shopping on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg, the best PSU I could find had 24A on +5V; it was a 750W. The […]
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Ozzuneoj wrote:

They make adapters for those: https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4 […]
Show full quote

blurks wrote:

Why would anyone opt for an old PSU when the modern ones do the exact same thing? It's not like it is adding anything to a retro build, it is just an absolutely boring piece of hardware that provides power. Do modern ones not have ATX and Molex connectors anymore?

They make adapters for those:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4

There's really no reason to use old standard-sized power supplies anymore (even AT supplies can be replaced with ATX PSUs and adapters). Unless you know for sure that you need a specific number of amps on the +5v rail and need an older unit to get that, but those situations are going to be very rare. It also isn't that hard to find a more modern unit that has 30A on the +5v rail, which is plenty for almost any system.

After about thirty minutes of shopping on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg, the best PSU I could find had 24A on +5V; it was a 750W. There was a Startech 300w with 30A, but it appeared to be a 15-year-old model. Probably has been sitting in a warehouse for that long.

Also, wouldn't completely loading down the +5V rail on a modern power supply cause load balancing issues? From what I understand, they just aren't designed for that kind of load.

I'm still also curious: is it safe to buy a 15+ year old "new old stock" motherboard, or are the caps going to be almost certainly dead on arrival?

I would get a used Seasonic 550HT from eBay. They used to be incredibly cheap. Now they're in the $30 range. Still a great power supply though. Modern, but has tons of connections and 30A on the +5v rail. I bought 10 of them a couple years ago for like $15 a piece and they're all in great condition. I have also bought around 20 used Seasonic 350ET (or similar) units over the last 5 years and they are always fine.

As for the caps, I'm quite far from being a capacitor alarmist. For every suggestion I've been given to replace every single cap on every device that's more than 15 years old, I have at least 10 devices which are that old or much older and have the original caps and are exhibiting no problems. Generally, I recommending weighing the costs and risks versus the benefits. Every cap replaced costs money, time spent researching and purchasing parts and time spent replacing them. Every cap replaced also brings risks of damaging the board if it doesn't cooperate (some boards are built in a way that makes soldering much harder than other boards due to absorbing heat and using high melting point solder). Your level of experience and (to an extent) the tools you have available will be the biggest factors in determining the risk. The benefits are basically going to be related to improved stability in the long run and possibly higher resale value (assuming your work is good enough to be worth selling).

How I handle it when inspecting a board that is worth keeping\fixing\using:

If a board has caps that are definitely, visibly bad, replace those and all like them. If the board has other caps from a completely different brand, look them up first before spending hours on it. If they only cheaped out on 6 out of 30 caps on a board, save yourself the hassle unless you just LOVE recapping boards.

If it has caps that are notorious for failing, I'd recommend replacing them even if they look okay, though if the board isn't exhibiting any problems, this greatly depends on the cost and risk assessment mentioned above.

If the board has good brand name caps from a good series (even the good brands had a couple bad series during the plague era I think), and it is exhibiting no problems, I wouldn't even consider replacing them, personally.

If we're talking about something that is very old or very rare and it works fine, but you really want to make it last as long as possible, then the the cost\risk versus benefits assessment comes into play again. Old boards can be easier to work on in some ways but they are more fragile as well.

I replaced a few caps in my 5153 CGA monitor from the mid '80s to fix a specific problem. I'm sure it'd be a good idea to replace all of them, but the cost would be quite high and it would take a LOT of free time. There are also tons of risks involved. So, it is currently using mostly original caps and works without any issues. It'll likely stay that way until I have another problem.

accaris wrote:

The VIA USB drivers completely freeze up the computer.

This is period correct experience, so exactly what you signed for 😉
As for the caps, yes, you should treat them as perishable good. You cant expect stuff to work like new just because it was stored for 20-30 years in enclosed space (rubber venting elastomers, foam disintegrating, caps drying up, solder joints oxidizing/growing whiskers). Personally I dont understand non mechanically/electronically inclined vintage collectors of any kind (cars, consoles, computers), this hobby gets very expensive quick if you arent willing to put own time and skills into restoration.

I don't trust the voltages shown in the BIOS. I've seen them be inaccurate by almost a volt. Instead, I power on the system and use a basic digital multimeter on an unused hard drive power connector. Yellow to black should be 12V ±0.6V. Red to black should be 5V ±0.25V.

rasz_pl wrote:

accaris wrote:

The VIA USB drivers completely freeze up the computer.

This is period correct experience....

I can relate to that sentiment.

The most disappointing PC that I ever built was based on an Abit KA7-100 with a VIA KX133 chipset. Even before the capacitors started bulging, it was unreliable. I tried BIOS patches, the George Breese patch, various VIA 4-in-1 drivers, no 4-in-1 drivers, a new PSU, different RAM, a different GPU, 4 different versions of Windows, BeOS, various sound cards and various fan configurations. Nothing kept that motherboard stable, and after I RMA'ed it, the replacent board was just as glitchy.

In contrast, a relative gave me an Asus K7A when he upgraded about 10 years ago. It works with everything I've plugged into it. It is similar to the Abit KA7-100, but it has an AMD 750 Irongate north bridge instead of the VIA KX133. It was still working fine the last time I used it (last year).

TL;DR
Moral of the story: There comes a point when it's best to give up on a motherboard and get a different one. Especially if it has VIA written on its north bridge chip.

accaris wrote:

I recently bought a brand new in the box motherboard, PSU, and video card in the hopes of putting together a sweet Windows 98 SE build, but so far it's been nothing but a massive headache. The PSU is reading way out of spec on the +12v rail. Windows 98 crashed like 3 times during the install. The VIA USB drivers completely freeze up the computer. Having any video card at all in the AGP slot has a 50% chance of locking up the PC on boot. A nightmare!

Is it even safe to buy "new old stock" equipment that is 15+ years old? I've read articles on electrolytic capacitor shelf life, and people seem to agree that sitting completely unused is like a death sentence for capacitors. Apparently the oxidized aluminum layer completely deteriorates and kills the caps in just a few years! Does anyone else have a negative experience with buying brand new in the box stuff? Right now I'm eyeing an Intel D815EE board brand new in the box to try again, but I'm scared it'd just be a waste of money and time.

What kind of system are you trying to run? 20A on the 5v rails is enough for pentium 3 or older, you only run into issues if you are trying to run socket A and later AMD boards in particular, before 754. Anything with a 4pin north bridge header is going to be all 12v.

New old stock is definitely not a guarantee that it is in good shape. Capacitors age regardless of whether or not they are used. It is worth looking at the caps on the motherboard to see if any are bulging, and for the love of god don't use a 90's power supply. They weren't even good back then.

STX wrote:

I can relate to that sentiment. […]
Show full quote

rasz_pl wrote:

accaris wrote:

The VIA USB drivers completely freeze up the computer.

This is period correct experience....

I can relate to that sentiment.

The most disappointing PC that I ever built was based on an Abit KA7-100 with a VIA KX133 chipset. Even before the capacitors started bulging, it was unreliable. I tried BIOS patches, the George Breese patch, various VIA 4-in-1 drivers, no 4-in-1 drivers, a new PSU, different RAM, a different GPU, 4 different versions of Windows, BeOS, various sound cards and various fan configurations. Nothing kept that motherboard stable, and after I RMA'ed it, the replacent board was just as glitchy.

In contrast, a relative gave me an Asus K7A when he upgraded about 10 years ago. It works with everything I've plugged into it. It is similar to the Abit KA7-100, but it has an AMD 750 Irongate north bridge instead of the VIA KX133. It was still working fine the last time I used it (last year).

TL;DR
Moral of the story: There comes a point when it's best to give up on a motherboard and get a different one. Especially if it has VIA written on its north bridge chip.

Via stuff from back then can be tricky to get going. But it should be just fine once you get the correct drivers installed.

I had a KA7-100 back in the day that I bought new from the store and it worked great until the caps died in it.

accaris wrote:

After about thirty minutes of shopping on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg, the best PSU I could find had 24A on +5V; it was a 750W. The […]
Show full quote

Ozzuneoj wrote:

They make adapters for those: https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4 […]
Show full quote

blurks wrote:

Why would anyone opt for an old PSU when the modern ones do the exact same thing? It's not like it is adding anything to a retro build, it is just an absolutely boring piece of hardware that provides power. Do modern ones not have ATX and Molex connectors anymore?

They make adapters for those:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15-pin-SATA-Male-to- … C4AAOSw6vBc15N4

There's really no reason to use old standard-sized power supplies anymore (even AT supplies can be replaced with ATX PSUs and adapters). Unless you know for sure that you need a specific number of amps on the +5v rail and need an older unit to get that, but those situations are going to be very rare. It also isn't that hard to find a more modern unit that has 30A on the +5v rail, which is plenty for almost any system.

After about thirty minutes of shopping on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg, the best PSU I could find had 24A on +5V; it was a 750W. There was a Startech 300w with 30A, but it appeared to be a 15-year-old model. Probably has been sitting in a warehouse for that long.

Also, wouldn't completely loading down the +5V rail on a modern power supply cause load balancing issues? From what I understand, they just aren't designed for that kind of load.

I'm still also curious: is it safe to buy a 15+ year old "new old stock" motherboard, or are the caps going to be almost certainly dead on arrival?

I use a Startech 300W ATX power supply on my test bench and it works great. I've even run 5V heavy Socket 462 setups on it with no issue. It might be worth a second look for you.