OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 17:05:

I don’t have personal experience with any of them. You’ll need to do the legwork to cross reference the south bridges and check Win98 driver availability.

If you’re looking for a single box that can cover a lot of ground with nothing extra needed, then the HP T5710 is what you probably want to get (DOS sound, + Win98 drivers + solid 3D acceleration in a single box).

Otherwise, you will need to play the trade off game. You’ll have to be very patient if you want to pick up hardware for low cost.

Sadly I can not find a HP T5710 but I found a HP T5700

OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 17:05:

I don’t have personal experience with any of them. You’ll need to do the legwork to cross reference the south bridges and check Win98 driver availability.

If you’re looking for a single box that can cover a lot of ground with nothing extra needed, then the HP T5710 is what you probably want to get (DOS sound, + Win98 drivers + solid 3D acceleration in a single box).

Otherwise, you will need to play the trade off game. You’ll have to be very patient if you want to pick up hardware for low cost.

OK the trade off is i want NATIVE Dos support with sound ( without an extra sound card ). Then if I have to run XP or Linux for games its OK

I can find easily an HP 610 here is the output of lspci:

00:00.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 14h Processor Root Complex
00:01.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Wrestler [Radeon HD 6320]
00:01.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Wrestler HDMI Audio
00:11.0 SATA controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 SATA Controller [IDE mode] (rev 40)
00:12.0 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB OHCI0 Controller
00:12.2 USB controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 USB EHCI Controller
00:14.0 SMBus: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 42)
00:14.2 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) (rev 40)
00:14.3 ISA bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB7x0/SB8x0/SB9x0 LPC host controller (rev 40)
00:14.4 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge (rev 40)
00:15.0 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB700/SB800/SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 0)
00:15.2 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 2)
00:15.3 PCI bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SB900 PCI to PCI bridge (PCIE port 3)
00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 0 (rev 43)
00:18.1 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 1
00:18.2 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 2
00:18.3 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 3
00:18.4 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 4
00:18.5 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 6
00:18.6 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 5
00:18.7 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Function 7
03:00.0 Ethernet controller: Broadcom Corporation NetLink BCM57781 Gigabit Ethernet PCIe (rev 10)
04:00.0 USB controller: Texas Instruments TUSB73x0 SuperSpeed USB 3.0 xHCI Host Controller (rev 02)

Will the "Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) (rev 40)" work with SBemu under Dos ?

If you want to use SBEMU for pure DOS on the t610, the answer is “probably.”

But to be honest, the t610 is so modern that you’re better off running DosBox for DOS games in Windows.

OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:13:

If you want to use SBEMU for pure DOS on the t610, the answer is “probably.”

But to be honest, the t610 is so modern that you’re better off running DosBox for DOS games in Windows.

I believe the AMD T56N is more or less like an intel atom. I have some Netbooks with intel atom CPUs and all struggle in 3D dos games under DosBox but they have 3-4x the performance when running games natively .

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:28:

OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:13:

If you want to use SBEMU for pure DOS on the t610, the answer is “probably.”

But to be honest, the t610 is so modern that you’re better off running DosBox for DOS games in Windows.

I believe the AMD T56N is more or less like an intel atom. I have some Netbooks with intel atom CPUs and all struggle in 3D dos games under DosBox but they have 3-4x the performance when running games natively .

I am not sure why you're still discussing AMD T56N, because it cannot run Win9x and my understanding is that's a key required feature by @Biomecanoid, but let me tell you that AMD T56N in terms of Futro S900 revision with that chipset is totally unique IMHO, because it's the fastest (at least that I can tell) thin-client with PCI slot - that makes it very precious if you have some PCI device you want to use (e.g. high-end sound card like Onkyo SE-90PCI), especially in totally silent fanless environment.

Also, the Futro S900 motherboard (its model number is "D3003") contrary to other thin-client is standard Mini-ITX size, which means if you want to use high-profile bigger in size PCI card you can move it to standard Mini-ITX case. So, here is something like comparison table between HP T610 with AMD T56N and Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) with AMD T56N:

1. T610 is PCI-Express (needs Riser card and case extension, the so-called "T610 Plus"), Futro S900 is PCI

2. T610 board format is not standard, Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Mini-ITX

3. for some reason T610 is 20% slower in 3DMark 2001 compared to Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard with AMD T56N: roughly 9000 points versus 11 000 points. In any way, that shows AMD T56N is not that weak at all, for example compare to:

Re: What is the best Thin Client for Windows 98 (SE)

it's like several times faster (3DMark 2000 vs 3DMark 2001) and many other thin-clients (of course, I am not talking about some ultra-new ones, because Fujitsu already have thin-client with Ryzen for example).

4. both AMD and Fujitsu Selling-point is that AMD T56N is faster than "Intel Atom N450" or similarly clocked 1.6Ghz, in fact they posted Benchmark results that put such Atom really as very very weak - to be honest it's even unbelievably weak - see the attached screenshot.

5. for me it doesn't matter, but HP T610 is made in China, but Fujitsu Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Made in Augsburg, Germany and I don't know about quality, but the board style itself is totally different Fujitsu looks aesthetically very nice.

I can continue go on and go on, but there really is no point - I mean my main point here is that not all AMD T56N-based solutions are equal and to some you cannot find anything better/faster as alternative, e.g. faster Mini-ITX motherboard with PCI slot, which is the case of Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) .

[EDIT] and just to make one more time note, that there are at least 4 versions of Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard - with AMD G-T44R (total crap), G-T52R (total crap), AMD G-T40N (nice for audio and some other none very heavy performance tasks, but it runs WinXP smooth - it's very common and cheap, good to have if you need PCI slot), AMD G-T56N (very nice, but rare and usually expensive).

Well if its indeed one of the fastest thin clients with PCI support that makes all the difference. It seems to have DOS support with SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) but even if it doesn't we can install a sound card.

If we re lucky and sound works without any mods then we can install a PCI GPU for even more performance

I think we have a winner

mattw wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:24:

I am not sure why you're still discussing AMD T56N, because it cannot run Win9x and my understanding is that's a key required fe […]
Show full quote

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:28:

OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:13:

If you want to use SBEMU for pure DOS on the t610, the answer is “probably.”

But to be honest, the t610 is so modern that you’re better off running DosBox for DOS games in Windows.

I believe the AMD T56N is more or less like an intel atom. I have some Netbooks with intel atom CPUs and all struggle in 3D dos games under DosBox but they have 3-4x the performance when running games natively .

I am not sure why you're still discussing AMD T56N, because it cannot run Win9x and my understanding is that's a key required feature by @Biomecanoid, but let me tell you that AMD T56N in terms of Futro S900 revision with that chipset is totally unique IMHO, because it's the fastest (at least that I can tell) thin-client with PCI slot - that makes it very precious if you have some PCI device you want to use (e.g. high-end sound card like Onkyo SE-90PCI), especially in totally silent fanless environment.

Also, the Futro S900 motherboard (its model number is "D3003") contrary to other thin-client is standard Mini-ITX size, which means if you want to use high-profile bigger in size PCI card you can move it to standard Mini-ITX case. So, here is something like comparison table between HP T610 with AMD T56N and Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) with AMD T56N:

1. T610 is PCI-Express (needs Riser card and case extension, the so-called "T610 Plus"), Futro S900 is PCI

2. T610 board format is not standard, Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Mini-ITX

3. for some reason T610 is 20% slower in 3DMark 2001 compared to Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard with AMD T56N: roughly 9000 points versus 11 000 points. In any way, that shows AMD T56N is not that weak at all, for example compare to:

Re: What is the best Thin Client for Windows 98 (SE)

it's like several times faster (3DMark 2000 vs 3DMark 2001) and many other thin-clients (of course, I am not talking about some ultra-new ones, because Fujitsu already have thin-client with Ryzen for example).

4. both AMD and Fujitsu Selling-point is that AMD T56N is faster than "Intel Atom N450" or similarly clocked 1.6Ghz, in fact they posted Benchmark results that put such Atom really as very very weak - to be honest it's even unbelievably weak - see the attached screenshot.

5. for me it doesn't matter, but HP T610 is made in China, but Fujitsu Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Made in Augsburg, Germany and I don't know about quality, but the board style itself is totally different Fujitsu looks aesthetically very nice.

I can continue go on and go on, but there really is no point - I mean my main point here is that not all AMD T56N-based solutions are equal and to some you cannot find anything better/faster as alternative, e.g. faster Mini-ITX motherboard with PCI slot, which is the case of Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) .

[EDIT] and just to make one more time note, that there are at least 4 versions of Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard - with AMD G-T44R (total crap), G-T52R (total crap), AMD G-T40N (nice for audio and some other none very heavy performance tasks, but it runs WinXP smooth - it's very common and cheap, good to have if you need PCI slot), AMD G-T56N (very nice, but rare and usually expensive).

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

Well if its indeed one of the fastest thin clients with PCI support that makes all the difference. It seems to have DOS support with SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) but even if it doesn't we can install a sound card.

yes, but still you cannot use many PCI sound cards for DOS with T56N, because the chipset has no DDMA, probably only something like ESS, that has TDMA, will work.

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

If we re lucky and sound works without any mods then we can install a PCI GPU for even more performance

unfortunately, I think no T56N BIOS allows to disable the build-in graphics card. so, I doubt, PCI GPU will work.

mattw wrote on 2023-05-08, 20:08:

yes, but still you cannot use many PCI sound cards for DOS with T56N, because the chipset has no DDMA, probably only something l […]
Show full quote

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

Well if its indeed one of the fastest thin clients with PCI support that makes all the difference. It seems to have DOS support with SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) but even if it doesn't we can install a sound card.

yes, but still you cannot use many PCI sound cards for DOS with T56N, because the chipset has no DDMA, probably only something like ESS, that has TDMA, will work.

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:58:

If we re lucky and sound works without any mods then we can install a PCI GPU for even more performance

unfortunately, I think no T56N BIOS allows to disable the build-in graphics card. so, I doubt, PCI GPU will work.

No even the Yamaha DG-XG or the ALS4000 ?

mattw wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:24:

I am not sure why you're still discussing AMD T56N, because it cannot run Win9x and my understanding is that's a key required fe […]
Show full quote

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:28:

OldWingCommander wrote on 2023-05-08, 18:13:

If you want to use SBEMU for pure DOS on the t610, the answer is “probably.”

But to be honest, the t610 is so modern that you’re better off running DosBox for DOS games in Windows.

I believe the AMD T56N is more or less like an intel atom. I have some Netbooks with intel atom CPUs and all struggle in 3D dos games under DosBox but they have 3-4x the performance when running games natively .

I am not sure why you're still discussing AMD T56N, because it cannot run Win9x and my understanding is that's a key required feature by @Biomecanoid, but let me tell you that AMD T56N in terms of Futro S900 revision with that chipset is totally unique IMHO, because it's the fastest (at least that I can tell) thin-client with PCI slot - that makes it very precious if you have some PCI device you want to use (e.g. high-end sound card like Onkyo SE-90PCI), especially in totally silent fanless environment.

Also, the Futro S900 motherboard (its model number is "D3003") contrary to other thin-client is standard Mini-ITX size, which means if you want to use high-profile bigger in size PCI card you can move it to standard Mini-ITX case. So, here is something like comparison table between HP T610 with AMD T56N and Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) with AMD T56N:

1. T610 is PCI-Express (needs Riser card and case extension, the so-called "T610 Plus"), Futro S900 is PCI

2. T610 board format is not standard, Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Mini-ITX

3. for some reason T610 is 20% slower in 3DMark 2001 compared to Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard with AMD T56N: roughly 9000 points versus 11 000 points. In any way, that shows AMD T56N is not that weak at all, for example compare to:

Re: What is the best Thin Client for Windows 98 (SE)

it's like several times faster (3DMark 2000 vs 3DMark 2001) and many other thin-clients (of course, I am not talking about some ultra-new ones, because Fujitsu already have thin-client with Ryzen for example).

4. both AMD and Fujitsu Selling-point is that AMD T56N is faster than "Intel Atom N450" or similarly clocked 1.6Ghz, in fact they posted Benchmark results that put such Atom really as very very weak - to be honest it's even unbelievably weak - see the attached screenshot.

5. for me it doesn't matter, but HP T610 is made in China, but Fujitsu Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard is Made in Augsburg, Germany and I don't know about quality, but the board style itself is totally different Fujitsu looks aesthetically very nice.

I can continue go on and go on, but there really is no point - I mean my main point here is that not all AMD T56N-based solutions are equal and to some you cannot find anything better/faster as alternative, e.g. faster Mini-ITX motherboard with PCI slot, which is the case of Futro S900 ("D3003"motherboard) .

[EDIT] and just to make one more time note, that there are at least 4 versions of Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard - with AMD G-T44R (total crap), G-T52R (total crap), AMD G-T40N (nice for audio and some other none very heavy performance tasks, but it runs WinXP smooth - it's very common and cheap, good to have if you need PCI slot), AMD G-T56N (very nice, but rare and usually expensive).

So the correct version is the s900N ?

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 21:09:

No even the Yamaha DG-XG or the ALS4000 ?

ALS4000 is DDMA card and that's perfect if the motherboard chipset is supporting it. Yamaha DG-XG is DDMA and PCPCI - again, none of those are supported with T56N. ESS has TDMA (plus DDMA), you can read more about DDMA, PCPCI and TDMA here:

Re: Cmedia CMI8738 - maybe its Biggest Secret

So, basically, that's why several users here recommended you "Futro S400" - it can take full-profile PCI card (S900 is limited to low-profile PCI card), has DDMA support, i.e. it's totally different level of DOS and Win9x compatibility - Futro S900 has nothing of that, but it's faster - the question is - can you take any advantage of that speed for the application you want to use it, i.e. DOS gaming. however, Futro S400 has no SBEMU support (Sis7018 sound), which is something you want and that should work with S900.

Biomecanoid wrote on 2023-05-08, 21:43:

So the correct version is the s900N ?

don't know - just check with the seller its Futro S900 with T56N, but usually the seller lists the exact chipset. So, search for "Futro S900 G-T56N" should be enough.

ALS4000 is DDMA card and that's perfect if the motherboard chipset is supporting it. Yamaha DG-XG is DDMA and PCPCI - again, none of those are supported with T56N. ESS has TDMA (plus DDMA), you can read more about DDMA, PCPCI and TDMA here:

Re: Cmedia CMI8738 - maybe its Biggest Secret

OK ESS it is then in case onboard sound does not work

So, basically, that's why several users here recommended you "Futro S400" - it can take full-profile PCI card, has DDMA, i.e. it's totally different level of DOS and Win9x compatibility - Futro S900 has nothing of that, but it's faster - the question is - can you take advantage of that speed for the application you want to use it, i.e. DOS gaming.

Well I can't find a Futro S400 nowhere closest I could find is Futro S550. The goal is retro gaming with priority to Native DOS gaming with sound and then windows gaming but windows gaming is a bit more flexible it can be done via Win98 ( ideally ) , WinXP or Linux via Wine ( which is not emulation and there is not hit in performance)

don't know - just check with the seller its Futro S900 with T56N, but usually the seller lists the exact chipset. So, search for "Futro S900 G-T56N" should be enough

.

Well the specs are in the photos and its listed as Futro S900 G-T56N

Good evening all! I’m new to retro gaming and thin clients… I have a Wyse cx0, Via 855 chipset
I see on YouTube others have removed the “dom”
And installed an ide to SD card adapter and used this setup to install windows… but when I do this the BIOS states there is no master drive installed
And even if I set the boot drive as “usb CD drive”
I just get errors, even with a windows 98se disc
In the drive… what am I doing wrong?? Do I have to reset the BIOS? Or? If I put the “dom” back in and restart, windows XP embedded boots up just fine! ?? Can someone please help.. thanks, Gene

What adapter are you using?
USB CD drive is wrong. It needs to be a fixed disk.

Futro s900 AMD G-T56n user here, without any modification, i'll give you my 5 cents 😁
This thin client is working wonderfully and native with windows xp. I tried any windows game from 1997-2005 and working great (thanks to onboard integrated radeon). For the period 1992-1997 I'm using dosbox. This is my setup for all around retro. I love it.

mattw wrote on 2023-05-08, 19:24:

3. for some reason T610 is 20% slower in 3DMark 2001 compared to Futro S900 "D3003"motherboard with AMD T56N: roughly 9000 points versus 11 000 points.

@dragonkn solved this problem during discussion we had on PMs. it all started with @dragonkn having the opposite problem: Futro T56N showing as slow performance as T610. anyway, I am going to leave @dragonkn to share or not to share the solution, I just wanted to make a note - there is now some understanding what is going wrong. also, it's not clear if that works with T610, but sure it can bring "misbehaving" Futro T56N to proper performance level.

I was intrigued by why my Fujitsu S900 G-T56N was less efficient with 3D Mark 2001.I got 8700 points results, Much less than Mattw results

Everything indicates that the problem is too low RAM frequency. After changing RAM modules (CPU-Z shows 1333 MHz insted of 1066 MHz) I got 3D Mark 2001–10060 points. That's 14% faster.

It's very tricky to run 1333 MHz on the Futro S900. There is no RAM settings anywhere in the bios.
I got lucky with this memory:
Samsung 2GB-1Rx8-PC3-12800s-11-11-b2 made in the Philippines (double-sided!)

I got, 12800s single-sided memory , and they're working only at 1060 Mhz speed

Maybe the T610 can be at 1333 MHz? I sadly don't have a T610.

Thanks Mattw for your support, I would never have thought of it myself

mattw wrote on 2023-05-07, 21:39:

@b0by007 : Excellent information! if HP T5720 is not supported by SBEMU that means no any SIS chipset will work with SBEMU (at least until support is added), because all SiS chipset use the same Sis7018 AC97 Audio controller. Also, good information about Futro B210 - I did not know it's supported both by VIASBCFG and by setmul, but as you mentioned it's still not a perfect combination. I agree with you - something like "486 dx2 66mhz with yamaha ISA sound card" hardly can be beaten.

FYI; HP T5720 works with SBEMU now as SIS 7012 is supported and my HP T5720 equipped with FX5500 is becoming dream machine as it takes little space and does Win98 and now DOS. However, at first SBEMU worked properly only with few games, for others digital sounds looped badly. I think reason is IRQ conflict even though I had COM and LPT disabled, but I did not wish to disable USB. On-board sound did take IRQ 5 and SBEMU took IRQ 7 and under Windows 98 I saw that IRQ 7 is taken also by ACPI IRQ Holder for PCI IRQ Steering. Not sure if this is true in DOS also, but no IRQ configuration did work.

HP T5720 BIOS is super limited and did not help, HOWEVER turns out that somebody finally was able to unlock it and create custom 1.13 BIOS which had all menu entries unlocked including IRQ settings. So I changed IRQ 7 as reserved after which looping problem disappeared and under Windows 98 I can see that no other resource uses IRQ 7. There were games I had which still did not work, but I then tried to reserve IRQ 5 instead of IRQ 7 after which on-board sound did move to IRQ 7, SBEMU was able to use IRQ 5 and remaining games started to work. How awesome!

Sound quality still is not perfect but perhaps this is software issue now. Also I do not have PS/2 peripherals and seems legacy USB device support in BIOS is extremely bad as moving mouse or typing destroys performance. Not sure how that is even possible, but have to look for PS/2 devices...

Edit: Finding PCI expansion kit seems to be near impossible nowadays, but I bought generic PCI riser and 3D printed bracket, works well. I did not have energy to 3D model proper riser so lid is off at the moment...

jarp wrote on 2024-03-24, 19:36:

FYI; HP T5720 works with SBEMU now as SIS 7012 is supported

thanks that's good to know. so, maybe Fujitsu Furto S400 is working now too. it doesn't need any riser as it can accommodate full-profile PCI card in its tiny case.

jarp wrote on 2024-03-24, 19:36:

so lid is off at the moment...

yeah, I found and bought original HP Riser card, as it looks like higher quality than generic one, but not the case Extension and thus I need to keep the lid off even with original riser.

For the record, this unlocked 1.13 bios for HP T5720 also allowed to enable UDMA for HDD, which doubled transfer speeds under Win 98 from 16 MB/s to 33 MB/s (using CF card and Sandisk Extreme Pro card).

So SBEMU working, transfer speeds are great, fast (well...) graphics card, superb. But legacy USB support is trash, had to get PS/2 input devices, no problems anymore.

Edit: Enabling UDMA made QEMM not to work in my machine and some games do work under QEMM while hang under JEMMEX so...

Edit2: Keeping legacy USB support enabled, even if you do not connect USB devices, slows down QEMM memory scan A LOT (like 10x) in addition to huge slowdowns when USB keyboard or mouse is operated. So use 1.13 BIOS to disable them and use PS/2 peripherals or use converter like hidman.

jarp wrote on 2024-03-28, 19:40:

SBEMU working

BTW, don't miss the fact those SiS chipsets have DDMA support, which is better than SBEMU in terms of compatibility, even though, as discussed preciously, probably some small software patches are needed for DDMA to be enabled.