VOGONS


First post, by Fallaxia

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Hi,

I got a Shuttle HOT-433 Rev.3 with 256MB Edo RAM and a modded Award 4.51PG BIOS from 2001 along with large HDD (>127GB) support and an Intel Pentium Overdrive 80Mhz +1MB L2 cache ready and running.

My question is: Which modern Linux distribution would work beside Gentoo?
Debian ditched 486/586 support after Jessie and almost all other major Linux distributions only even start with a bizzare combo of i686 packages and SSE2 + PAE kernel requirements.

But I need i486/i586 support. Does anyone know a working solution or has anyone tried this and got some knowledge to share?

Reply 1 of 23, by dionb

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You can filter on architecture at Distrowatch.org. Choosing i486 gives you this lot:
http://distrowatch.org/search.php?ostype=All& … s=Active#simple

I'd double-check whether the distros you see actually are still compiled with -march=i486 and still use a 486-friendly glibc. Tbh, I'd use Gentoo if you want up-to-date packages. Of course the learning curve is quite steep, and you need to have a LOT of patience (or figure out how to cross-compile). If you'd prefer pre-compiled stuff for quick&dirty install, I'd suggest using NetBSD instead of a Linux. It's fast, easy and just works on just about anything 486 and above with an FPU.

I'm intending to do a Gentoo 486 install for testing purposes, particularly for networking - notwithstanding mbrutman's excellent packet stuff, DOS networking is limited and ancient. But it's somewhere down my to-do list right now...

Last edited by dionb on 2019-07-01, 13:09. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 2 of 23, by Fallaxia

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Yes, I tried distrowatch already. Most results are unfortunately plain wrong. The distributions call it i486, like debian does, but it´s just a dummy selection, and i686 in reality.

I currently got Gentoo running, and there is my problem. I got weird data corruptions, wrong checksums etc. and can not find the source. Tried different hardware/IO controller, Kernel etc. nothing helps.
I ran memtest for days, no error. Even got parity/ECC EDO ram modules.

That is why I would like to try out another distribution to find the problem. Seems to be on the software side.
Windows 2000 (even WinXP with the Pentium Overdrive) works just fine, no corruption, no checksum errors.

Reply 3 of 23, by dionb

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Hmm, corruption normally sounds like RAM, cache or CPU issues (or HDD & controller), but they would take down Win2k just as fast.

For quick&dirty troubleshooting, I'd recommend NetBSD. It's about as easy to install as Debian, simple CLI guided installer.

Reply 4 of 23, by winuser_pl

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This computer is just to old for anything "modern". You will need to recompile the kernel with your own flags, disabling many many features and security flags. The next step would be to rebuild the window manager.
But even if you could manage to start the kernel and window manager you will get only software rendered graphics - this plus 486 architecture will result in a horrible slow OS.
But if this is not an issue for you, then you will face another problem - there are no software for 486 architecture. The current software is not a monolite like in the 90s, where you had a source package and you had to rebuild it. Today you will have to rebuild all of the dependencies as well which is just a pain in the ass because they must be build recursively to "the ground zero". The amount of the work is insane and it is impossible for any person who is not a senior dev.
Forget about anything modern. You could try something like source code from 13-15 years ago and then rebuild it. Remember, we software developers are guys who like to keep things clean, many of the improvements are introduced by the cost of backward compatibility over the years. That's why it is not always just a thing of rebuilding the current source code, because the legacy part of code is thrown away at some stage of refactoring.

PC1: Highscreen => FIC PA-2005, 64 MB EDO RAM, Pentium MMX 200, S3 Virge + Voodoo 2 8 MB
PC2: AOpen => GA-586SG, 512 MB SDRAM, AMD K6-2 400 MHz, Geforce 2 MX 400

Reply 5 of 23, by BinaryDemon

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I personally have not tested on anything nearly that retro, but pretty sure TinyCore will run on that.

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!

Reply 6 of 23, by dionb

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winuser_pl wrote:

This computer is just to old for anything "modern". You will need to recompile the kernel with your own flags, disabling many many features and security flags. The next step would be to rebuild the window manager.
But even if you could manage to start the kernel and window manager you will get only software rendered graphics - this plus 486 architecture will result in a horrible slow OS.
But if this is not an issue for you, then you will face another problem - there are no software for 486 architecture. The current software is not a monolite like in the 90s, where you had a source package and you had to rebuild it. Today you will have to rebuild all of the dependencies as well which is just a pain in the ass because they must be build recursively to "the ground zero". The amount of the work is insane and it is impossible for any person who is not a senior dev.

What you describe here is exactly what Gentoo does for you. You specify the architecture and the flags, it handles the dependencies and compilation. It's harder than "click here to install", but so long as you have a basic understanding of the hardware you are using and how Linux generally works (libraries, frameworks etc), it's by no means impossible and you definitely don't need to be a dev, let alone a senior one.

I once shoehorned a Gentoo install including full graphical UI into a P266MMX laptop with 32MB RAM. It took me over two weeks of compile time (couldn't get distcc to work), but I was left with something usable - and far more usable than a less optimized install of an older Debian etc would have been, as cutting out unneeded support shrunk binary size significantly (~25%), which is very, very relevant when you have so little RAM. Now, that was a while ago, but the same principle should still apply.

OP tried that and it works in principle, he just has stability issues that he is trying to troubleshoot.

Forget about anything modern. You could try something like source code from 13-15 years ago and then rebuild it. Remember, we software developers are guys who like to keep things clean, many of the improvements are introduced by the cost of backward compatibility over the years. That's why it is not always just a thing of rebuilding the current source code, because the legacy part of code is thrown away at some stage of refactoring.

There's "modern" and "modern". Of course a 486 isn't going to do anything even remotely modern graphically speaking, but that's a sideshow in the Linux world, under the hood it's all CLI and that doesn't require a Ryzen + Vega combination. Also, you don't need something as bloated as systemd to boot a system... A 486 can run ssh, so can communicate with and control other, newer, far more powerful devices. By running an up-to-date version, it can connect to internet safely. You can do bash scripting, so there's nothing stopping you working in the Unix way, stringing multiple simple programs together to get complex stuff done. None of those simple programs inherently requires any more power than a 486 can deliver, and few of them will have crazy dependencies that don't make sense on old hardware.

So there's nothing inherently unrealistic about getting up-to-date Linux running (in CLI only, or with a very simple X+WM combo) on vintage hardware. However if it doesn't work under Gentoo your options are limited as pretty much no one precompiles for dinosaurs like this anymore. Which is why I recommend NetBSD. It definitely runs on a 486DX with 32MB RAM and definitely has up-to-date networking including ssh.

Reply 7 of 23, by Fallaxia

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This computer is just to old for anything "modern". You will need to recompile the kernel with your own flags, disabling many many features and security flags. The next step would be to rebuild the window manager.

Partially right. Like I wrote I currently run Gentoo Linux on it along with a bleeding edge 5.2-rc kernel. Heavily modified, yes, one can say that. Stripped down to what an old PentiumOverdrive actually needs.
No window manager needed, only console.

I use this machine for productive work --> flashing firmware updates to ISA non-PNP cards used in (modern) HP Cesium "atomic clocks".
Like these: http://www.leapsecond.com/hpclocks/

My PIII system with ISA support does not like the ISA cards. I think it treats them PNP while they are not and gets stuck before POST is finished.

The thing is, I hesitate to flash firmware to $20k machines when the system used to flash the card´s firmware does things like checksum/data corruption. It could cause a corrupt firmware on the card and serious damage on the HP clock.

Leaving me with my Shuttle HOT433 searching for the cause of these corruptions. Like I said: Windows runs fine, memtest too, hardware was exchanged one by one , all of it, even the board and CPU itself.

Which is why I recommend NetBSD.

I will try NetBSD. I assume I need to find a NetBSD version of HP´s update tool, meed to make some calls...

MUST....FIND...PROBLEM

Last edited by Fallaxia on 2019-07-01, 13:35. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 8 of 23, by winuser_pl

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@up - P266MMX - this is completely different architecture. It is much more modern and similar to current CPUs than 486. If the @op would ask about targeting i586 architecture, then my answer would be different 😀

PC1: Highscreen => FIC PA-2005, 64 MB EDO RAM, Pentium MMX 200, S3 Virge + Voodoo 2 8 MB
PC2: AOpen => GA-586SG, 512 MB SDRAM, AMD K6-2 400 MHz, Geforce 2 MX 400

Reply 9 of 23, by Fallaxia

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winuser_pl wrote:

@up - P266MMX - this is completely different architecture. It is much more modern and similar to current CPUs than 486. If the @op would ask about targeting i586 architecture, then my answer would be different 😀

I am asking for i586 architecture.
Like I wrote I got a PentiumOverdrive 80Mhz running on this 486 board.
The PentiumOverdrive is a i586 architecture CPU. Like a Socket 5 P90

Reply 10 of 23, by Fallaxia

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Fallaxia wrote:
I am asking for i586 architecture. Like I wrote I got a PentiumOverdrive 80Mhz running on this 486 board. The PentiumOverdrive i […]
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winuser_pl wrote:

@up - P266MMX - this is completely different architecture. It is much more modern and similar to current CPUs than 486. If the @op would ask about targeting i586 architecture, then my answer would be different 😀

I am asking for i586 architecture.
Like I wrote I got a PentiumOverdrive 80Mhz running on this 486 board.
The PentiumOverdrive is a i586 architecture CPU. Like a Socket 5 P90

Feel free to update your answer to this scenario. 😀

Reply 11 of 23, by winuser_pl

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Yeah, I missed the information. Then I need to correct it. It is possible but still it will be slow as hell. Windows 98 will be years ahead. Probably Windows NT 4 will be faster as well (and rock solid!).

PC1: Highscreen => FIC PA-2005, 64 MB EDO RAM, Pentium MMX 200, S3 Virge + Voodoo 2 8 MB
PC2: AOpen => GA-586SG, 512 MB SDRAM, AMD K6-2 400 MHz, Geforce 2 MX 400

Reply 12 of 23, by dionb

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winuser_pl wrote:

Yeah, I missed the information. Then I need to correct it. It is possible but still it will be slow as hell. Windows 98 will be years ahead. Probably Windows NT 4 will be faster as well (and rock solid!).

It really depends what you want to do with it. For graphical work (i.e. games), you're spot on, but for networking, no way. In terms of performance Win9x is little better than DOS. NT4 is fast enough, but won't run modern tools, so completely insecure. Running Linux you get the full toolkit that's completely up to date. I wouldn't trust any 9x/NT system on the public internet, but I'd happily use an old beast running up-to-date Linux to log onto my router or home server to do serious work.

So, OP, what do you actually intend to do with this machine running Linux?

Reply 13 of 23, by Fallaxia

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I wouldn't trust any 9x/NT system on the public internet, but I'd happily use an old beast running up-to-date Linux to log onto my router or home server to do serious work.

Yes, it will be exposed to the internet, most likely having it´s own IPv6 address, so I can do the upgrades in my home-office and don´t need to drive over to the lab just to switch ISA cards.

The HP tool is a pain in the a**
Just works with Win 7 and newer or Linux 3.16+ and newer no NetBSD version in sight, dang.
I hate these proprietary locked down tools. The worst is, HP got an one-4-all approach, where one tool is doing the updates for all cards, starting with 1990s cards up to the most recent 2019 series.

Seems like the NetBSD route is good for stability testing though, but yet I still need a Linux distribution where:

#1 I can compile and run my own kernel
#2 It´s packages run/compile on i586 architecture

Any suggestions?

Reply 15 of 23, by retardware

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Fallaxia wrote:

I got weird data corruptions, wrong checksums etc. and can not find the source. Tried different hardware/IO controller, Kernel etc. nothing helps.
I ran memtest for days, no error. Even got parity/ECC EDO ram modules.

Use OpenBSD or FreeBSD for i386. "make buildworld/buildkernel" is the best test for system stability. Memtest is not comparable with that.
Did you make sure the power supply is in-spec? The glitches you describe could be caused by that.

Personally, I am considering upgrading my 486 to 64 or 128MB to run one of the BSDs for maintenance purposes (especially backup of the FAT/LFN stuff via NFS).

Reply 16 of 23, by SirNickity

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Just curious ... how did you get Linux on to the 486 to begin with? I'm having a bear of a time finding a disc that will even boot on my Pentium MMX 200. The latest Gentoo stuff panics pretty much immediately.

I wish I could find an old Gentoo repo that still had a distfiles snapshot from around 2005. I don't mind running out-of-date stuff internally on my LAN, but Gentoo's rolling updates make it pretty much impossible to have a time-machine Linux build. A lot of the new packages require a much more recent kernel, so it's kind all-or-nothing.

Reply 17 of 23, by Fallaxia

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I got an ATX power supply along with an AT adapter, as I do it every time. The PSU is a Fractal Design Tesla 1000W. It is the only PSU I own, which does not turn off due to the extremely low power draw of ~ 5 to 10 Watts. I only have PSUs >1000W but that has never been the problem, power is stable, I just checked usig a ATX Y-plug to connect one end to a power analyser and the other end to the board/adapter.
I even tested for ripple, noise, and of course proper voltage etc. all fine.
Like I said: Dos/Windows 2000 / XP rock solid, with and without load and I/O. I used the SSD test tool H2testW to check for data corruptions on the media while writing/reading. All fine. Tested a 60GB drive and some SD cards for fun, all good.

It has to be something software related in Gentoo, which causes this.
Still trying to find another suitable distribution which allows a custom kernel. so I can build the modules for the HP ISA cards I intend to flash new firmware to.

@Warlord

Does TinyCore allow a custom kernel? Could not find this info flying over their docs.

Reply 18 of 23, by Fallaxia

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SirNickity wrote:

Just curious ... how did you get Linux on to the 486 to begin with? I'm having a bear of a time finding a disc that will even boot on my Pentium MMX 200. The latest Gentoo stuff panics pretty much immediately.

I wish I could find an old Gentoo repo that still had a distfiles snapshot from around 2005. I don't mind running out-of-date stuff internally on my LAN, but Gentoo's rolling updates make it pretty much impossible to have a time-machine Linux build. A lot of the new packages require a much more recent kernel, so it's kind all-or-nothing.

Excellent question!

I use VMware on my workstation to do this, here is how:

Setup a new VM in VMware, select some generous hardware settings for memory and CPU, networking etc. and select "physical disk".
Connect an empty, unpartitioned SSD of your choice to your workstation and select the physical disk you just connected in vmware as HDD for the virtual machine.

Build Gentoo (or install your linux distribution you like) as usual.
Once you are done installing and compiling your custom "486 / 586" kernel along with proper options and modules, shut the vmware down, disconnect the SSD and hook it up to your old-n-trusty 486 machine.
Have fun.

The trick is not to use a vmware container file, but to use the physical disk directly (vmware workstation offers this in the settings of the vmware)
This way you don´t have to spend ages installing on the old machine and get a system ready in just a few minutes.

Reply 19 of 23, by BinaryDemon

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Fallaxia wrote:

Does TinyCore allow a custom kernel? Could not find this info flying over their docs.

I've never done it but... http://wiki.tinycorelinux.net/wiki:custom_kernel

Check out DOSBox Distro:

https://sites.google.com/site/dosboxdistro/ [*]

a lightweight Linux distro (tinycore) which boots off a usb flash drive and goes straight to DOSBox.

Make your dos retrogaming experience portable!