2mg wrote on 2023-07-03, 00:30:

I need a bit of clarification here:

- 45.XX drivers are "best" for W98 games

Another myth: no absolutely no.
You will lose compatibility and image quality with them because Nvidia starts cheating with Detonator 4x.xx not with 5x.xx.
Did you tried to play Colin McRae rally, Shogo, Blood 2 the chosen ( just few examples but there are more) with Detonator 4x.xx?
Let me know if you are able to.
Compatibility/image quality side is better to use 30.82 or older.
Of course with NV3x you are almost obligated to use them but using them like a reference starting point, from my experience, it's wrong.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-06, 16:31:

Blood 2: Black screen and flickering HUD, unplayable really.

That's an old problem, download RivaTuner and check blitting in Direct3D options. Easy fix.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-07, 11:49:

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-06, 16:31:

Blood 2: Black screen and flickering HUD, unplayable really.

That's an old problem, download RivaTuner and check blitting in Direct3D options. Easy fix.

Thank you! I'll test again tonight and then update my post with the results.

Stermy57 wrote on 2023-07-07, 10:18:

Another myth: no absolutely no. You will lose compatibility and image quality with them because Nvidia starts cheating with Det […]
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Another myth: no absolutely no.
You will lose compatibility and image quality with them because Nvidia starts cheating with Detonator 4x.xx not with 5x.xx.

Compatibility/image quality side is better to use 30.82 or older.
Of course with NV3x you are almost obligated to use them but using them like a reference starting point, from my experience, it's wrong.
Even more if you want to run say W3.1 and W95 games that work on W98.

I didn't know this, seems that 45.xx is lauded here as THE W98 driver.
Dunno why community agreed on 4x.xx as go to driver if what you're saying holds up.
30.82 is probably max GF3/4 territory, which isn't that bad tho.

There isn't a single end all be all W98 solution.
But chasing the optimal SW/HW combo with most performance/compatibility is the next best thing if you don't wanna build a W98 PC for every ~2 years of W98's existence.
Even worse if you want that W98 to run old DOS, W3.1 and W95 games...
And multibooting is also available for different driver versions/GPUs.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-07, 02:14:

I'm fairly sure I had QFX3000 and the 5700U running on the 45.23 last time I checked. If not 53.04 can be done.

Edit: that would have to be the Asrock dual Sata with the ULi chipset. I can't think of another board that had a true AGP slot and a 16X PCIe slot on the same board. In my experience the Geforces6 series is not much better in 98. I have tons of those too. In the same system I'm testing with, I was running a Quadro FX 3400 that I could unlock pipes to 6800GT level. I ended up sticking with the FX, because the Chameleon demo would exhibit input lag. Even on the AGP system my 6800GT just isn't that great in 98. It's killer in XP but then again, my 7950gt is even better. My next builds I'll probably be running an ATi 9600XT or God forbid the X700 that's freaky fast in 98 for what it is.

The PT880 (forgot if needs Pro/Ultra) chipset does true AGP (ULi for AMD).
The Asus P4V800D-X s478, Asrock P4Dual-880Pro s478 and Asrock 775Dual-880Pro s775 (and DualVSTA, but no W98 drivers on their page) should have native AGP.
That's according to them calling their AGP actually AGP and not AGI or similar pseudo AGP, the mobo manuals, and PT880 datasheet.

Regarding QFX3000 and 5700U, well I'm going by patchnotes from that link.
Maybe edited INF, RivaTuner ID faking, or edited strapping/deviceID could push them to 45.xx, dunno about that.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-07, 11:49:

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-06, 16:31:

Blood 2: Black screen and flickering HUD, unplayable really.

That's an old problem, download RivaTuner and check blitting in Direct3D options. Easy fix.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-07, 12:33:

Thank you! I'll test again tonight and then update my post with the results.

Unless it works on AGP FX cards out of the box, maybe leaving this in "broken" territory but with an asterisk "fixable".
Since the point is what works as is, except if a game has a patch, then patched is also ok.

I have the 775 Dual Vsta and the PCI-E isn’t full 16x, it’s only 4x. I only use it to pair Core 2 Duo with AGP. It works great in 98 though.

2mg wrote on 2023-07-07, 13:35:

Unless it works on AGP FX cards out of the box, maybe leaving this in "broken" territory but with an asterisk "fixable".

Nah, like I said, it's an old problem which also occurs on GeForce 4 Ti and probably GeForce 3. RivaTuner allows to fix a bunch of problems with pre-G80 cards.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-07, 14:57:

Nah, like I said, it's an old problem which also occurs on GeForce 4 Ti and probably GeForce 3. RivaTuner allows to fix a bunch of problems with pre-G80 cards.

Fair enough in that case
Mentioned it in a sense not to get skewed results anyway.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-07, 14:52:

I have the 775 Dual Vsta and the PCI-E isn’t full 16x, it’s only 4x. I only use it to pair Core 2 Duo with AGP. It works great in 98 though.

How'd you get it working in 98, I see no drivers?

Regarding PCIE x4, that should be enough for these FX/GF6, outside of some cases where it might bottleneck some GPUs with some settings in some games as I understand it.

And any other newer PCIE intensive GPUs make no sense for W98, and neither for that board for XP games as it has 2GB RAM limit.

Even a C2D is pretty much similar to a s775 P4 for W98 (will see 1 core), and just a "high-end" s478/s775 P4 is probably an overkill already for W98.
C2D might run cooler. I'm not counting cache or FSB benefits here tho, if there are any.

It's a good overall mobo to have, at least it's younger than what I wrote.

I dunno how you made it work in 98...

I think the PCI-E lanes are through the Southbridge. Edit: I’m wrong on that sorry.

You Just need the Via 4 in 1, or was it Hyperion by then? Anyway I made a CD with all the drivers I needed, I’ll check tonight and see what they were.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-07, 14:57:

Nah, like I said, it's an old problem which also occurs on GeForce 4 Ti and probably GeForce 3. RivaTuner allows to fix a bunch of problems with pre-G80 cards.

I saw your posts in the Quake 3 Sky thread and can tell you know what’s what with that game.

Every win 9x system I build with Nvidia Gf3 or higher get terrible time demo scores in Q3A. Like less than 100fps with a GF3. Each generation will barely move the needle.

If I slap a Radeon 9600 in the same system it will be like 300 FPS.

What am I doing wrong, any tips?

Can't say for sure, never had serious issues with Q3 timedemos on Nvidia cards. Well, on AGP cards with fully functional GART driver that is.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-08, 05:24:

Can't say for sure, never had serious issues with Q3 timedemos on Nvidia cards. Well, on AGP cards with fully functional GART driver that is.

Systems specs: K8V, A64 3200+, Quadro FX 3000

Under AGP settings tab of the Nv control panel. Only Fast Writes looks to be disabled, and won’t stay enabled even if I force it with Riva tuner. Lists: AGP 3.0 8X, sideband addressing as enabled

I think I’m going to Shelve the K8V for the AGP test system and go back to the drawing board.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-07, 16:51:

I think the PCI-E lanes are through the Southbridge. Edit: I’m wrong on that sorry.

You Just need the Via 4 in 1, or was it Hyperion by then? Anyway I made a CD with all the drivers I needed, I’ll check tonight and see what they were.

Any "how-to" on this?

Also, which GPUs you running on that?

2mg wrote on 2023-07-08, 23:14:

Any "how-to" on this?

Also, which GPUs you running on that?

The only chipset driver you should need is the via_hyperion_4in1_v456v.zip on Phils site. It installed everything chipset related. I don't know about LAN and the AC97 audio as I don't use those.
I was running the Quadro FX 3000. As other have said the 45.23 is not the end all be all, for my AGP systems that was what was giving me low FPS in Quake3. I switched 53.04 and pretty much doubled my framerate.

As for the Quadro FX 1300 and PCX 5750, I would NOT recommend them for Win9X 3D gaming. In Dos and Win9X GUI they are fine, my scores were good with Toms2D bench and the DOS games that I liked looked fine and performed well. But in the end, they just aren't worth it. Especially the PCX 5750, I'm selling that turd.

I've seen enough, and I don't really see a reason to continue my comparison unless someone has a special request.

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-09, 17:49:

The only chipset driver you should need is the via_hyperion_4in1_v456v.zip on Phils site. It installed everything chipset rela […]
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2mg wrote on 2023-07-08, 23:14:

Any "how-to" on this?

Also, which GPUs you running on that?

The only chipset driver you should need is the via_hyperion_4in1_v456v.zip on Phils site. It installed everything chipset related. I don't know about LAN and the AC97 audio as I don't use those.
I was running the Quadro FX 3000. As other have said the 45.23 is not the end all be all, for my AGP systems that was what was giving me low FPS in Quake3. I switched 53.04 and pretty much doubled my framerate.

As for the Quadro FX 1300 and PCX 5750, I would NOT recommend them for Win9X 3D gaming. In Dos and Win9X GUI they are fine, my scores were good with Toms2D bench and the DOS games that I liked looked fine and performed well. But in the end, they just aren't worth it. Especially the PCX 5750, I'm selling that turd.

I've seen enough, and I don't really see a reason to continue my comparison unless someone has a special request.

Thanks.

Seems like another "FX Quadro (1300) is meh".
PCX FXs seem nonexistant too.

Wanna give it one go with RivaTuner faking the ID into PCX5950 or FX5900?

PS: that Q FX 3000, which AGP GPU has similar performance? FX5900?

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-08, 15:25:

Systems specs: K8V, A64 3200+, Quadro FX 3000 […]
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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-08, 05:24:

Can't say for sure, never had serious issues with Q3 timedemos on Nvidia cards. Well, on AGP cards with fully functional GART driver that is.

Systems specs: K8V, A64 3200+, Quadro FX 3000

Under AGP settings tab of the Nv control panel. Only Fast Writes looks to be disabled, and won’t stay enabled even if I force it with Riva tuner. Lists: AGP 3.0 8X, sideband addressing as enabled

I think I’m going to Shelve the K8V for the AGP test system and go back to the drawing board.

You are probably experiencing the AGP memory bug present in PT880/K8T800 chipsets in Windows 9X. This bug was introduced, in Asus motherboards, by a BIOS update in either BIOS version 1006 or 1007. Version 1005 is confirmed by multiple people to not have the AGP memory bug.

MSI K8T NEO-V + Athlon 64 - very slow 3D performance in Windows 98 (works great in Windows XP)

The simplest way to know if you have the bug or not is to open dxdiag and see if AGP Texture Acceleration is enabled or not. You can also go into 3DMark 2001 and see if AGP Memory is listed as "0 bytes".

Dothan Burger wrote on 2023-07-09, 17:49:

The only chipset driver you should need is the via_hyperion_4in1_v456v.zip on Phils site.

Not for later VIA chipsets. You need a package newer than 4.56 for PT880/K8T800 chipsets. The latest Hyperion 5.24a driver pack works fine. Sort of. The installer will say it failed, but after a reboot it will find all the VIA devices. You should also install the chipset drivers first, reboot, then install the AGP driver. If 5.24 is causing issues (not related to the AGP memory bug) then 5.14 is a good fallback.

You are probably experiencing the AGP memory bug present in PT880/K8T800 chipsets in Windows 9X. This bug was introduced, in Asus motherboards, by a BIOS update in either BIOS version 1006 or 1007. Version 1005 is confirmed by multiple people to not have the AGP memory bug.

Ah, ASUS quality strikes again.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-07-10, 09:41:

You are probably experiencing the AGP memory bug present in PT880/K8T800 chipsets in Windows 9X. This bug was introduced, in Asus motherboards, by a BIOS update in either BIOS version 1006 or 1007. Version 1005 is confirmed by multiple people to not have the AGP memory bug.

Ah, ASUS quality strikes again.

It affects every motherboard with PT880 and K8T800 chipsets. Not just ASUS. Some microcode update by VIA in 2005 seemed to break AGP in 9X.

VDNKh wrote on 2023-07-10, 17:05:

Thanks for the insights, I've some PT880 mobos so this might be a lifesaver!

I've read something here about it's Southbridge counterpart having some issues with IDE/Sata in W98 too, can't seem to find it...

Thanks for that info VDNKH. The 775Dual VSTA does not appear to be effected by that bug. AGP Texture acceleration is enabled in Dxdiag.

2mg I’ll give rivatuner bootstrapping a shot but I don’t think it will change much. It didn’t change much if I remember, it just gave me different control panel settings. And made the temps go way up.

I tried reverting to older NvopenGL.dll’s on the FX1300 running 81.93. The only one that was semi successful was 45.23 Gl.dll. Even Dll’s from the previous driver revision wouldn’t load quake3. The 45.23 GL.dll would load the game, but was really glitchy. If anyone has any insight on that I would be down to try, I don’t care if I hose the OS.

2mg wrote on 2023-07-10, 18:42:

I've read something here about it's Southbridge counterpart having some issues with IDE/Sata in W98 too, can't seem to find it...

You need VT237A, original revision does not support any storage with SATAII/III interface. But there are some workarounds. SSDs with Sandforce SF-2281 controller can be forced to work in SATAI mode. Relatively new Hitachi/HGS HDDs also support forced software switch between SATA modes. Some old SATAII HDDs provided jumpers to force SATAI mode.