VOGONS


First post, by Durandal

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Hey all,

I have a PAL Apple IIe Colour Composite CRT monitor that's acting strangely. It's refusing to display in any colour but one, aka. it's monochrome, but I can change the overall colour using the bias adjustments pots inside of the case. Take a look:

https://imgur.com/a/b4Oy2LQ/

I've tried it with both a PAL and NTSC PlayStation 1, both display in monochrome (NTSC is expected to be anyway but I thought I'd try it just in case). I've sprayed DeoxIT in all of the front adjustment pots (brightness, contrast, etc.) and tested the colour/monochrome switch to make sure it's fine, and it is.

Anybody know what's going on, or at least where I should start? I have a little bit of experience with CRTs but this one escapes me.

Cheers,
Jordan

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Reply 2 of 16, by dr.ido

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There is no PAL Apple IIe composite color monitor - The color composite monitor sold with the platinum Apple IIe is NTSC, but color burst frequency is somewhat off from normal NTSC. You won't get color from a platinum "international NTSC" Apple IIe on a normal NTSC TV and you won't get color on the Apple composite color monitor from a normal NTSC source.

If you don't have the matching Apple IIe and just want to use it as a standard NTSC monitor you will need to replace the crystal with a stanard NTSC 3.58MHz one - I did this when it was the only NTSC monitor I had at the time and I wanted to play my NTSC 3DO.

If you are playing NTSC games on a modded PAL playstation your console may be confusing the issue - Back in the day some people fitted a "color mod" to force the playstation to output an almost-PAL signal when playing NTSC games. This allowed you to play NTSC games in color on most old PAL only TVs, but the non standard signal doesn't work on some multisystem TVs.

If you do have the matching Apple IIe I'd suggest leaving it alone and getting another NTSC monitor for your Playstation.

Reply 3 of 16, by Durandal

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dr.ido wrote:
There is no PAL Apple IIe composite color monitor - The color composite monitor sold with the platinum Apple IIe is NTSC, but co […]
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There is no PAL Apple IIe composite color monitor - The color composite monitor sold with the platinum Apple IIe is NTSC, but color burst frequency is somewhat off from normal NTSC. You won't get color from a platinum "international NTSC" Apple IIe on a normal NTSC TV and you won't get color on the Apple composite color monitor from a normal NTSC source.

If you don't have the matching Apple IIe and just want to use it as a standard NTSC monitor you will need to replace the crystal with a stanard NTSC 3.58MHz one - I did this when it was the only NTSC monitor I had at the time and I wanted to play my NTSC 3DO.

If you are playing NTSC games on a modded PAL playstation your console may be confusing the issue - Back in the day some people fitted a "color mod" to force the playstation to output an almost-PAL signal when playing NTSC games. This allowed you to play NTSC games in color on most old PAL only TVs, but the non standard signal doesn't work on some multisystem TVs.

If you do have the matching Apple IIe I'd suggest leaving it alone and getting another NTSC monitor for your Playstation.

...well now I just feel stupid.

KL6Akmj.jpg

I would've tried my IIe Platinum first, but it was in pieces and missing its power connector (stole it to install in a clone board for testing) so a game console was much quicker and easier to test the monitor with. At least I've learned something useful! I had no idea that the IIe Platinum was like that.

Now, another question: would it be possible to install an NTSC 3.58MHz crystal alongside the original with a switch to choose between them? My NES is American and I currently don't have a colour NTSC CRT to play it on.

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Reply 4 of 16, by dr.ido

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It may be possible, but I wouldn't bother - Surely it can't be that hard to find a CRT TV of some description. I've picked up 10 for a project in past week - all were put out on the street for rubbish. Even in a PAL country most CRT TVs from the late 90s onward will accept an NTSC signal (from the AV input at least - some do not have an NTSC compatible tuner).

Reply 5 of 16, by Vipersan

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I too have done this mod ..
there are a couple of jumpers to change ..but the crystal is VERY important..
not only the frequency but also the 'cut' plane of the crystal ..
It needs to be a serial resonant crystal ..
rgds
VS

Reply 6 of 16, by Durandal

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dr.ido wrote:

It may be possible, but I wouldn't bother - Surely it can't be that hard to find a CRT TV of some description. I've picked up 10 for a project in past week - all were put out on the street for rubbish. Even in a PAL country most CRT TVs from the late 90s onward will accept an NTSC signal (from the AV input at least - some do not have an NTSC compatible tuner).

I haven't seen a CRT on the side of the road in about 3 years, nobody seems to be tossing them anymore. I have a 20" CRT that can handle NTSC but it's too big for my setup and is instead in the other room as a test TV.

Vipersan wrote:
I too have done this mod .. there are a couple of jumpers to change ..but the crystal is VERY important.. not only the frequency […]
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I too have done this mod ..
there are a couple of jumpers to change ..but the crystal is VERY important..
not only the frequency but also the 'cut' plane of the crystal ..
It needs to be a serial resonant crystal ..
rgds
VS

I bought one of these and gave it a shot yesterday:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/3-5795mhz-crystal/p/RQ5272

sPWjW22.jpg

vwestlife on vcfed said that Apple's monitors had bad overscan and he was completely correct, that's the best I could adjust it. There were intermittent flickering lines of colour too, I'm guessing that has something to do with the 'cut' plane of the crystal like you said? And what jumpers did you change?

I think I'm just going to leave it alone for now, I've put the old crystal back in. The monitor isn't in great condition anyway, I think I might try to trade it for a better looking one or just sell it outright. Anyway, thanks for your help guys!

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Reply 8 of 16, by Durandal

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Windows9566 wrote:

mine has discoloration on the corners but works fine, the discoloration is annoying though.

You might be able to fix that with a degaussing wand, there are some cheap Chinese ones on eBay. Just make sure you don't keep it on for more than around 30 seconds otherwise it'll melt itself and then your hand.

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Reply 9 of 16, by dr.ido

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Durandal wrote:

I haven't seen a CRT on the side of the road in about 3 years, nobody seems to be tossing them anymore. I have a 20" CRT that can handle NTSC but it's too big for my setup and is instead in the other room as a test TV.

Looks like you're in Australia - If you are anywhere near Oakleigh, Victoria I'll probably have some 14" left over after I am done with them.

Reply 10 of 16, by Durandal

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dr.ido wrote:

Looks like you're in Australia - If you are anywhere near Oakleigh, Victoria I'll probably have some 14" left over after I am done with them.

Nope, sorry - Sydney. Thanks though.

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Reply 11 of 16, by Windows9566

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Durandal wrote:
Windows9566 wrote:

mine has discoloration on the corners but works fine, the discoloration is annoying though.

You might be able to fix that with a degaussing wand, there are some cheap Chinese ones on eBay. Just make sure you don't keep it on for more than around 30 seconds otherwise it'll melt itself and then your hand.

I have waved a magnet out of a failed hard drive over it to coax the discoloration off but it's a band-aid fix and after hours of not using it, it comes back. maybe i need something better than a hdd magnet like what you said, a degaussing wand.

Reply 12 of 16, by Durandal

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Windows9566 wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Windows9566 wrote:

mine has discoloration on the corners but works fine, the discoloration is annoying though.

You might be able to fix that with a degaussing wand, there are some cheap Chinese ones on eBay. Just make sure you don't keep it on for more than around 30 seconds otherwise it'll melt itself and then your hand.

I have waved a magnet out of a failed hard drive over it to coax the discoloration off but it's a band-aid fix and after hours of not using it, it comes back. maybe i need something better than a hdd magnet like what you said, a degaussing wand.

If a degaussing wand doesn't work, you might also have some luck attaching some small magnets to different positions inside the case on the tube. But be careful not to accidentally touch anything of course, I zapped myself yesterday on a Commodore 1802 - nothing major though, just stung my finger for a while.

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Reply 13 of 16, by Windows9566

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Durandal wrote:
Windows9566 wrote:

mine has discoloration on the corners but works fine, the discoloration is annoying though.

If a degaussing wand doesn't work, you might also have some luck attaching some small magnets to different positions inside the case on the tube. But be careful not to accidentally touch anything of course, I zapped myself yesterday on a Commodore 1802 - nothing major though, just stung my finger for a while.

i found that monitor during 2007 when i was like 11 years old, in a box with a apple iie platinum that i never got working and tossed it back during that year when i got all that Apple stuff, a dot matrix printer and 2x 5.25 floppy drives and tons of disks that unfortunately got flooded in the basement, i may have saved them by drying them off but i was young and didn't know about retro computing back then. I now have another Apple IIe platinum that works good, but i want to get that monitor working good. and also, i don't have a degaussing wand 🙁, i just improvised and used magnets from hard drives instead. I later found out that you can use a soldering gun for degaussing.

Reply 14 of 16, by Vipersan

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Additinal info pulled from a web post ..
"You also have to change a couple of connections on the motherboard. A PAL configured motherboard has a few opposing triangles on the motherboard near location C-14 that need to be connected and some opposing circles that need to be disconnected for NTSC. PAL boards have the triangles separated by cuts. You can use a small wire and some solder to reconnect. PAL boards have the opposing circles connected with blobs of solder. Use solder wick and a soldering iron to remove the solder.

Rev 0 boards do not have this easy modification built into the PCB.

I wonder why they didn't use jumpers for this configuration change as it would have simplified the change from NTSC and PAL. The crystal needs to be changed out, as well, so I guess it doesn't matter"

and a copy of my post from Amibay...
"So ..
I finally decided to try and revert my Apple II Europlus to an Apple II Plus
Basically the same unit ..but the Euro is PAL and the Plus NTSC.
Woz basically designed the Plus(NTSC) to use colour artfacting ..which sends pixels at specific times relative to the colour phase..
Call it a bodge or hack ..but it works.
In NTSC that is.
Sadly this method does not translate correctly in PAL systems ..thus ..no clour..
monochrome only.
But if an NTSC capable monitor is used and the PAL undo mods implemented in the Europlus are reversed..
voila ..
you have a PLUS unit.
The mod requires unsoldering links on the logic board ..soldering others..(I used removeable jumpers)
..and critically ..the systems crystal has to be replaced (I used a socket to keep it possible to reverse the mod easily)
The Crystal required has a frequency of 14.31818mhz and needs to be serial resonant..
These are tricky to find ..
which is why I took so long trying this.

anyway ..the result is that it works ..
You can see in one of the photos the same game output to a PAL crt monitor ..and an LCD muli system monitor which is NTSC capable.
appologies for the fuzzy photo images..
my camera is old ..and the lighting not great.
rgds
VS "

But this mod was on an Apple II Europlus ..so of course may not be relevant for a IIe ...
chances are this mainboard is totall different.
So appologies if I mislead anyone..

Reply 15 of 16, by c_melody

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Here's an attempt to tie together all I've been able to figure out concerning these monitors (!)
btw I believe there is also an ultra-rare 240V AppleColor Composite Monitor *IIc* version - but I've yet to encounter one in the wild

Apple_II_monitors_240V_table_summary_for_forum.jpg

⇒ URL 1
⇒ URL 2
⇒ URL 3
⇒ URL 4
⇒ URL 5
⇒ URL 6

Reply 16 of 16, by c_melody

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Anyone know the model # of the 240V ColorMonitor IIe (beige ca. 1985-86)? A good clear photo of the backside would be rather helpful. 120V ColorMonitor IIe is A2M2056, so A2M2056X for the 240V is a probable guess but I'm not sure.