VOGONS


First post, by johnnycontrario

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I've been building a mini 486 system around an Advantech PCA-6145L industrial single board computer. I was perfectly happy with the configuration I ended up with: 2 slot ISA backplane, ZIF socket to swap CPUs, SB16 with real OPL, Gotek with FlashFLoppy, Sintech SD to IDE adapter, XTIDE(386) in DOC-2000 socket (BIOS had 8.4G limit and some f*cky behavior with 8G SD Cards), 1G DOM in slave position as repository for software/tools, PS2 to USB adapter that actually works with wireless keyboards and mice, etc. Things were shaping up to be pretty sweet, but then I had the idea of using a real CD drive instead of a DOM so that I can play games that only work from CDs. Getting cable select working lead me to my question:

Does anyone know why an IDE channel would have the BALE signal on pin 28 and what it would have been used for?

The documentation I've found so far says it's an ISA bus signal and it has something to do with DMA, but I can't find anything about an IDE/PATA device using that signal.

I need to know because I shorted pin 28 to GND on the motherboard after "confirming" that it wasn't connected to anything with a DMM (don't yell at me, I already feel stupid). If you haven't already guessed, I was trying to make it so devices that support cable select would configure themselves based on the state of pin 28. That did work, but then I discovered this board DOES have a signal on that pin. I forgot that the manual actually has pinouts for all the connectors. This pin is not directly connected to B28 of the ISA bus, if you're wondering.

http://advdownload.advantech.com/productfile/Downloadfile1/1-236LOY/PCA-6145B-L%20_user%27s_manual_ed[1].2.pdf

Nothing is fatally broken. I haven't noticed any issues yet, but maybe I haven't used the affected circuit yet. I would like to confirm that I didn't blow any chips or glue logic.

If I hook a scope to this pin, does anyone know what the BALE signal should look like on an IDE channel?

Thanks! I greatly appreciate any insight into this.

Reply 1 of 7, by johnnycontrario

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Update of what I've found so you don't think I'm using vogons to do my research for me.

The closest thing I could find for what the signal should look like is this doc:

http://www.ee.nmt.edu/~rison/ee352_spr12/PC104timing.pdf

However, this is talking about ISA bus timings, so I don't know if this would be the same in the context of pin 28 of the IDE connector. I apologize if the answer is in front of my face, my electronics knowledge is mainly analog with a superficial understanding of digital circuits.

I found some jumper settings for some old motherboards that suggest that BALE on pin 28 of the IDE connector was some optional feature on early IDE controllers:

https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/F/F … EO-486-GAV.html
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/F/F … 486-VIP-IO.html

My controller is ATA-2 from what I can tell. I can't find any mention of BALE in any of the ATA specs and I can't find any IDE devices that require it. I'm still wondering what the signal is there for and what it should look like.

Reply 2 of 7, by bakemono

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On the ISA slot BALE is supposed to signal when the address becomes valid. On the IDE port it seems redundant since every I/O cycle will involve an IOR or IOW command and the address is certain to be valid already when that happens anyway. But if you are testing with a scope it looks like BALE should remain low most of the time with only a pulse preceding each read or write.

Reply 3 of 7, by johnnycontrario

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Thanks! That's super helpful info. That gives me some ideas for how to test it. The signal isn't used by any of my drives, but I bet there's some chatter during startup.

Most of my searches have been turning up unrelated nonsense, so I tried looking up ISA pinouts and discovered that BALE also goes by ALE, which seems obvious now. This lead me to this:
https://old.pinouts.ru/HD/IdeInternal_pinout.shtml

It looks like this signal was part of the original IDE standard (before ATA). It must be on my board for compatibility. I'll see if I can find the original IDE spec sheet and see if it has any more detail. Hopefully, I didn't blow any components and I can focus on getting a slimline CD drive working with it.

Reply 4 of 7, by Tiido

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All the boards I have don't connect that pin or connect it to ground, there probably isn't much of anything out there that absolutely needs this signal to be connected to BALE. A CD drive will not care at all about this signal nor do any HDD that I know of.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 5 of 7, by johnnycontrario

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So I made some measurements not knowing exactly what to look for. I found no waveforms during boot or operation of the drives. I saw no strange voltages between logic states, noise, etc. Just in case I was missing it, I rebooted several times with various one-shot trigger settings and still found nothing. Resistance to ground and power rails both look like an open circuit. The results are inconclusive. I can't tell if the circuit is blown, BALE/ALE/DALE doesn't exist on this board, or I'm not measuring properly.

Considering that I have not run into any new issues and the signal isn't part of any version of the ATA standard, I guess it's probably nothing to worry about. It would make sense for it to be missing. This wouldn't be the first time that I find an error in Advantech's documentation; the manual says it's ATA-2, but it has no DMA and the pinout matches the old pre ATA IDE standard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tiido, in your kickass sound card thread, you said the IDE port is a dumb port without buffers. I've read elsewhere that it's essentially an ISA slot in disguise. Ideally, I would like a secondary IDE channel for the cd-rom. Would building an IDE port for the available PC-104 connector be relatively simple? I'm not asking you to make it or design it for me. I am comfortable with prototyping and learning on my own, but I'm not sure where to start. Are there any schematics or documents that can point me in the right direction?

Thanks!

Reply 6 of 7, by Tiido

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You need to implement two address decoders for the two access strobes (!CE0 and CE1) on IDE connector, one for $1F0...$1F7(!CE0)+$3F6(!CE1) for primary and $170...$177+$376 for secondary. You can look at schemantics of stuff like Snark Barker and Adlib clones to see how one is made.

T-04YBSC, a new YMF71x based sound card & Official VOGONS thread about it
Newly made 4MB 60ns 30pin SIMMs ~
mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜