VOGONS


First post, by effy

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Hi All. New here and not sure how interesting people will find this. But maybe some of my struggles will be helpful to other folks.

I recently started a build project, mostly due to nostalgia. Along with being hugely into PC's as a kid, I worked in a small PC shop back in the Late 90's, so I used to have a lot of experience with the DOS/Windows era of things. For some reason I randomly decided to try building an old Win98se setup again. I also decided (because I'm cheap) to limit myself and try not to just buy whatever I want. Honestly, this way it takes longer, it's a hobby after-all, no reason to finish it in a week. So I am trying to find pieces locally when I can, and when I order online not to just spend top dollar to get something immediately, this of course could change 😀

Motherboard: DFI P2XBL rev D
CPU: Intel Pentium 3 500mhz Slot 1
RAM: 3 x 128mb PC100

I started out looking for what platform I wanted to run. I wanted to do a build that wasn't overly powerful but also didn't cause me to struggle too much running 3D games of the era. I remember having an Abit BH6 motherboard with a Celeron 300A that I loved. That would probably be my nostalgic choice but was not able to find any to my liking. I ended up sticking with the 440bx chipset, and found a cheap combo of a DFI P2XBL and P3 500mhz, 256mb RAM. Not the most feature rich, but it has ISA slots and got me most of the way there for under $50. My old store used to carry a lot of DFI boards, they were always nice cost effective and stable boards for us, so I have a bit of a soft spot for them. I remember the VT133A boards being especially solid for the time. I also had a stack of memory sticks a friend gave to me, which happened to have another 128mb stick of memory, so I threw that in as well. This rig is 3 non-matching sticks. Blasphemy for me back in the day. Today I don't much care, if it works.

The parts combo showed up marginally packed, not much protection and rolling around in a box. Surprisingly everything seemed ok.

Video: PNY FX5200 256mb AGP

I had also ordered an AGP card. This took a bit to decide what to buy. I ended up choosing a very cheap FX 5200 256mb listing. Possibly a mistake. I never used an FX series in the past, this came out at a time I was busy with other things (booze, girls) and career building, so was not into PC's too much. I was a huge 3dfx guy back in the day. Had a Voodoo2 12mb SLI setup with a Matrox G250 for 2D (I loved this setup at the time), then a V3 3500TV. However looking at prices of these now, wow, not in the budget at the moment. So I found a very cheap listing on the FX 5200, a PNY card. What I didn't pay attention to is the main picture was a stock photo, and the listing didn't really say it "worked" just that it was "Used" with the default eBay description of what that means. Add to that it showed up wrapped in Walmart bags and shoved in a mailer envelope. This was going well already.

Power Supply: 400W Insignia

For a power supply, I have a few spare units, all much newer ATX units however. One I did have laying around is a Best Buy special Insignia 400W that was a pull from a 10+ year old HP desktop. This seemed appropriate, given the bare metal case and general possibility of failure.

Initial Testing:

First order of business was seeing if anything I bought worked. Problem here, again poor planning. This Video card only has VGA and S-Video. I don't have a monitor with VGA anymore, nor any adapters, and my TV's don't have VGA either (I forgot I recently replaced one in the spare room, the previous one had a VGA input). Thankfully I do have a Retrotink with Svideo to HDMI capabilities. So that was all I had to work with. Hooked up everything on top of an old motherboard box, shorted the ATX-SW pins, and hey it powers on! The fan is loud as all hell, it's a retail P3 with the tiny fan on a small heatsink under a cover. The PSU fan isn't much quieter. But it powered on. Problem though, no video. Not that I'm surprised, because did I mention every capacitor on the FX 5200 was bulging? Yeah. I knew it wasn't going to work. That's what I get for $9 I guess. So off to the internet I went to order some capacitors.

$8 of mostly shipping and a few days later I have my new capacitors. They look right, but wait, some of them are slightly taller. I don't do re-cap work often, so I didn't even think about the physical dimensions. These are a good bit taller than the originals, which were short enough to keep it to a 1 slot card. Not a huge deal as I won't be loading this up, but lesson learned for next time.

I don't have a good soldering setup for this kind of work. I have a decent iron but it's a fairly large tip for small electronics. No solder wick or remover. I really need to order some better supplies and tools. Getting the old caps out was easy enough. Clearing out the holes of old solder enough to get the new ones in on the other hand was not. Quite a bit of fiddling later and I was able to replace all of the CAPs, 5 total. Now to test it out.....shockingly, my half-assed job worked. VIDEO!

More to come...

Reply 1 of 14, by RandomStranger

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effy wrote on 2021-01-24, 17:57:

Video: PNY FX5200 256mb AGP

I had also ordered an AGP card. This took a bit to decide what to buy. I ended up choosing a very cheap FX 5200 256mb listing. Possibly a mistake. I never used an FX series in the past, this came out at a time I was busy with other things (booze, girls) and career building, so was not into PC's too much. I was a huge 3dfx guy back in the day. Had a Voodoo2 12mb SLI setup with a Matrox G250 for 2D (I loved this setup at the time), then a V3 3500TV. However looking at prices of these now, wow, not in the budget at the moment. So I found a very cheap listing on the FX 5200, a PNY card. What I didn't pay attention to is the main picture was a stock photo, and the listing didn't really say it "worked" just that it was "Used" with the default eBay description of what that means. Add to that it showed up wrapped in Walmart bags and shoved in a mailer envelope. This was going well already.

Ouch!

I just shared some experiences with an FX5200. Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface. If it is and you bought that completely blindly and works after recapping, you should play lottery.

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 2 of 14, by effy

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RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-24, 19:26:

Ouch!

I just shared some experiences with an FX5200. Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface. If it is and you bought that completely blindly and works after recapping, you should play lottery.

Hey thanks for reading. I checked the part number and mine does match with GPUZoo. I'll have to grab an old version of GPU-Z and see if that tells me what things are clocked at.

Yes totally blind bought. I actually also found a broken off resistor, that part of the story will be in the next post 🤣.

Reply 3 of 14, by debs3759

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RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-24, 19:26:

Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface.

If it's wrong, please let me know. I took the reference specs from TechPowerUp for most cards on that site, and I know they have some errors. I'm working on the database most days, cross referencing specs with reviews where available, but most low end cards are hard to confirm specs on. AIB cards that I can't confirm have the reference specs filled in on many of the first cards added to the site - later unconfirmed cards are flagged as unconfirmed. I'm grateful for any feedback and corrections, especially with GPU-Z screenshots at default clock speeds.

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 4 of 14, by Pierre32

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effy wrote on 2021-01-24, 17:57:

Add to that it showed up wrapped in Walmart bags and shoved in a mailer envelope. This was going well already.

Ah yes, this classic. I had the same thing happen when I bought a Ti4200 last year, and amazingly it turned up in one piece. We do see some horror stories here: Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

Reply 5 of 14, by RandomStranger

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debs3759 wrote on 2021-01-24, 21:46:
RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-24, 19:26:

Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface.

If it's wrong, please let me know. I took the reference specs from TechPowerUp for most cards on that site, and I know they have some errors. I'm working on the database most days, cross referencing specs with reviews where available, but most low end cards are hard to confirm specs on. AIB cards that I can't confirm have the reference specs filled in on many of the first cards added to the site - later unconfirmed cards are flagged as unconfirmed. I'm grateful for any feedback and corrections, especially with GPU-Z screenshots at default clock speeds.

You are the one who's working on GPUZoo? I don't know if it is, I don't have that card. I know my MSI is missing from that site. The specs along with some other cards I have can be found here: https://i.ibb.co/ZhCqm5Z/lineup.jpg and this is the card in question: Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 6 of 14, by debs3759

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RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-25, 06:27:
debs3759 wrote on 2021-01-24, 21:46:
RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-24, 19:26:

Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface.

If it's wrong, please let me know. I took the reference specs from TechPowerUp for most cards on that site, and I know they have some errors. I'm working on the database most days, cross referencing specs with reviews where available, but most low end cards are hard to confirm specs on. AIB cards that I can't confirm have the reference specs filled in on many of the first cards added to the site - later unconfirmed cards are flagged as unconfirmed. I'm grateful for any feedback and corrections, especially with GPU-Z screenshots at default clock speeds.

You are the one who's working on GPUZoo? I don't know if it is, I don't have that card. I know my MSI is missing from that site. The specs along with some other cards I have can be found here: https://i.ibb.co/ZhCqm5Z/lineup.jpg and this is the card in question: Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

Thanks. I added it to the database, and will be sending it to the guy who does the website later this month.

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 7 of 14, by effy

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debs3759 wrote on 2021-01-24, 21:46:
RandomStranger wrote on 2021-01-24, 19:26:

Though If we can beliece GPUZoo, yours might have400MHz memory and 128bit interface.

If it's wrong, please let me know. I took the reference specs from TechPowerUp for most cards on that site, and I know they have some errors. I'm working on the database most days, cross referencing specs with reviews where available, but most low end cards are hard to confirm specs on. AIB cards that I can't confirm have the reference specs filled in on many of the first cards added to the site - later unconfirmed cards are flagged as unconfirmed. I'm grateful for any feedback and corrections, especially with GPU-Z screenshots at default clock speeds.

Grabbed some screenshots of what Everest shows. Looks to match up, although the "RAMDAC Clock" is different for some reason.

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Reply 8 of 14, by debs3759

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effy wrote on 2021-01-25, 21:55:

Grabbed some screenshots of what Everest shows. Looks to match up, although the "RAMDAC Clock" is different for some reason.

Memory clock is the only difference I see. Could you please both confirm you are talking about the MSI FX5200-D256 with original, unmodified BIOS? It may have been modified at some point in the production run if you are (that's not too uncommon). 200MHz (400MHz effective) is the reference memory clock for these cards, so I would be surprised if MSI did use clocks so much lower.

See my graphics card database at www.gpuzoo.com
Constantly being worked on. Feel free to message me with any corrections or details of cards you would like me to research and add.

Reply 9 of 14, by RandomStranger

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debs3759 wrote on 2021-01-25, 23:16:

Could you please both confirm you are talking about the MSI FX5200-D256 with original, unmodified BIOS?

We can't, it's 2 different cards. My version is the MSI FX5200-D256, the other is a PNY that was already on GPUZoo (linked earlier).

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 10 of 14, by ODwilly

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You know, Im guilty of having shipped a ti 4200 and a agp hd4670 in envelopes a few years back but I reinforced it with duct tape, cardboard, an anti static bag, packing peanuts and newspaper. Got positive feedback on Ebay so Id say it went well.

Main pc: Asus ROG 17. R9 5900HX, RTX 3070m, 16gb ddr4 3200, 1tb NVME.
Retro PC: Soyo P4S Dragon, 3gb ddr 266, 120gb Maxtor, Geforce Fx 5950 Ultra, SB Live! 5.1

Reply 11 of 14, by gerry

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following with interest! how's it going, maybe I missed it but interested in sound card and hard disc choices too

I would have played it safe and gone with a tnt2 for video, but if it all works out you'll be enjoying some late 90's magic soon enough!

Reply 12 of 14, by effy

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Part 2

Alright, sorry for the delay.

Hard Disk: 120GB Laptop SATA Drive
CD-ROM: LG IDE DVD-R Drive

I now had video output. My next decision was how to handle installing Windows 98, and what to install it to. I have a bunch of spare hard drives, but they are all SATA. But I did also have a spare SIL 3114 SATA RAID controller laying around. It used to be in my home server, but was removed for some reason. Probably because it stopped working consistently.

The SATA RAID card works in that the BIOS appears, and it detects my Hard Drive, a small 120GB SATA laptop drive. This drive actually has an OS on it, so it should at least try to boot. No luck however. I decide to make things easy on myself, I'll try one of those fancy IDE to CF adapters people are talking about. Ordered a pair for like $10, and a small 2GB CF card just to get started.

The other issue I had to figure out was, how would I even be installing Windows? I haven't really used a CD-ROM drive in years, and this board won't boot from a USB CD or thumb drive.

I decide I'll need to burn a new Windows 98 SE bootable CD. So I found an ISO online and grabbed my trusty old Samsung USB DVD/CD Burner and hook it up to my real current PC. Time to find a drive.

Local shops offer nothing, unsurprisingly, although I haven't tried actual local computer shops yet. I used to work at the main one in town 20 years ago, and my old asian boss still recognizes me. She always comments on how fat I've gotten, so I don't go there often, plus all that's going on.

So off to eBay I go and find a supposedly barely used in box CD-RW drive. Cool. It's IDE and no-name but that's fine. $6 bucks shipped. Hard to beat that. It eventually shows up, packed OK this time. Open the box and hmm, it's not supposed to be a Philips drive. I google the model number, ok it's a 32X drive, not the 52X on the box. Not that it matters, if it works. I find the one IDE ribbon cable I have, which I managed to find in my giant box of garbage that the wife hates, except for when I pull out the one odd-ball cable she needed for something. I hook the drive up, it has power and is detected by the BIOS. Stick a CD in and...just a blinking light. It won't read any discs I have, and won't eject unless I reboot and do it quickly.

I'm starting to realize I should probably be more selective on my eBay purchases. However, as luck would have it, I remembered there's a DVD-R drive in my home server in the closet. Sure enough, it's IDE. I completely forgot, as it has been unhooked for years when I upgraded the server to a board without an IDE port.

By this time the CF to IDE adapters and CF card showed up as well. I was in business. The adapter and CF card detect fine. Windows 98 OEM bootable CD works and setup detects the CF drive.

It's slower than I expected...once setup finished I enabled DMA in Device Manager which helped a good bit, but it still felt like the system was pausing every so often. After some googling and reading on places like Vogons, apparently CF cards aren't great for Win9x. No big deal, it was cheap and I can re-use them for a DOS only setup later.

I think to myself, well I was able to install the SATA RAID controller's drivers now. Maybe I can just clonezilla the Win98 install over to my SATA hard drive. Problem here again is, it won't boot from it. Oh and the reason it won't boot? The RAID BIOS on the 3114 keeps calling any attached drive invalid. I should probably be able to just go into the RAID BIOS and set it to JBOD or something right? Well, yes if my USB keyboard worked outside of the system BIOS and Windows. There's an option in the DFI motherboard's BIOS to enable USB Keyboard support in DOS. Great. Enable that and....wait why doesn't the RAID controller BIOS show up anymore? It still detects in Windows, but the boot BIOS screen is gone. Disable the USB Keyboard in DOS, and it's back. So this is going nowhere.

At this point I manage to find some threads about flashing the BIOS on these SIL 4113 cards. I'm able to download the "5000" version BIOS and the flash utility. Amazingly enough, this works while in Windows. The card is now a regular old SATA controller. The BIOS screen still goes away with DOS support enabled, but now I don't need it, because Clonezilla detects my USB keyboard just fine.

I'm able to clone my install over to the 120GB SATA drive, after fighting with partition sizes for a bit.

Great, this runs quite a bit better, and boots from the SATA controller OK now.

But this machine is behaving very strangely. I installed the "unofficial SP3" and newest Nvidia drivers, also unofficial. No 3D games wan't to work. It just crashes to the desktop. 2D seems fine. Very strange. I take out the VGA card to see if maybe I messed up my solder job on the caps. They look fine. But that's when I see something. One of the surface resistors is barely hanging on, it's smashed up against its neighbor. I poke it slightly, and it flops down onto the table. Time for the soldering iron. If I thought my iron tip was a bit big for some caps, I was in for some fun trying to solder this tiny thing back on. It just so happens I had watched an episode of Ben Heck on youtube showing how he solders these types of things. Sliding one side in, and then dabbing the other. Should be easy enough. It was not. I can't see this tiny thing. Somehow I manage to get it back on there and not destroy everything else around it. Back into the AGP slot it goes and...no difference.

I've messed with this for a few days at this point, trying to get different drivers to see if that helps. But, knowing Win98, I decide to start over clean, as much as I don't want to go through the whole ordeal again. I'll leave out SP3. I'll only install the 45.23 version nVidia drivers I saw mentioned as stable. I'll only install DirectX9c, and make sure any games I install don't try to install their ancient redist of DX5.

Now though, I have an epiphany. What BIOS version is this board even running? I had noticed originally that it doesn't even detect my P3's "serial number" properly. That brought a hit of nostalgia back. I completely forgot that was a thing. I look and it appears it is running the first release BIOS. Somehow I managed to find the most recent BIOS to download, and not from some shady site or one that wants me to pay them for the luxury. It even has the flash utility included.

I manage to update the BIOS, surprisingly quickly, and without bricking the board. That's always nice. Not much has changed it seems at first site. The Pentium 3 is detected properly now. But what's this. If I enable USB Keyboard in DOS now, the SATA controller BIOS screen shows up. Oh my it actually boots from it too. I decide what the heck, and boot from the Windows setup disc. What the heck, it actually just detects my SATA hard disk right off. No F2 to install controller drivers like XP. I'm...kind of shocked at this point.

This Windows install goes swimingly. I now have a nice clean Windows install on a SATA drive with no real fuss. Heck I don't know if I even needed to install the SATA controlelr driver, but did anyway to get rid of the yellow question marked "PCI Device".

Wouldn't you know it, 3D applications don't crash anymore. This is great.

At this point I decide to take a break for a few days. As my back hurts because all of this has been happening on my floor, looking up at the terrible quality S-Video signal on the TV.

Next on the agenda, sort out the monitor situation, and get USB thumb drives working. I can't be wasting precious CD-R's every day.

More to come...

Last edited by effy on 2021-01-28, 01:10. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 13 of 14, by effy

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gerry wrote on 2021-01-26, 11:48:

following with interest! how's it going, maybe I missed it but interested in sound card and hard disc choices too

I would have played it safe and gone with a tnt2 for video, but if it all works out you'll be enjoying some late 90's magic soon enough!

Hardware choices have kind of been by the seat of my pants. I really didn't have a plan, and haven't done a ton of recent research into VGA cards of the era, so it's all from memory. I do remember going through all the early nVidia offerings. The FX series is one I actually never got into at the time of release. So it was kind of a "hey why not" sort of thing.

As I keep going through this project though, I think I am going to be treating this build as a bit of a test bed to play with multiple different VGA and sound cards. TNT2 will likely be on the list.

Reply 14 of 14, by effy

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ODwilly wrote on 2021-01-26, 06:16:

You know, Im guilty of having shipped a ti 4200 and a agp hd4670 in envelopes a few years back but I reinforced it with duct tape, cardboard, an anti static bag, packing peanuts and newspaper. Got positive feedback on Ebay so Id say it went well.

Well it's probably fine if there's some sort of packing material. This was literally two walmart bags and an un-padded envelope! I mean, obviously that's not the cause of all the caps being blown, it was probably like that for years already. I guess I should just be glad it didn't actually break further in shipping.