Deksor wrote on 2021-01-27, 19:03:

if speed isn't a problem (since you want this for ISA) why not using a USB hub to multiply the USB ports ?

I was waiting for someone to say this. 🤣 very valid point they are usb 1.x ports back in the day when using them they were great for keyboard and mouse but windows complained about them a lot with other things and I do believe they are slower than isa. like, a lot slower. so isa would allow for a lot faster with usb 2.0. also this thread isn't just about me, lots of people would like to have one who aren't lucky enough to have a tx or hx chipset or 5 pci slots

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-01-27, 20:55:

Deksor wrote on 2021-01-27, 19:03:

if speed isn't a problem (since you want this for ISA) why not using a USB hub to multiply the USB ports ?

I was waiting for someone to say this. 🤣 very valid point they are usb 1.x ports back in the day when using them they were great for keyboard and mouse but windows complained about them a lot with other things and I do believe they are slower than isa. like, a lot slower. so isa would allow for a lot faster with usb 2.0. also this thread isn't just about me, lots of people would like to have one who aren't lucky enough to have a tx or hx chipset or 5 pci slots

USB 2.0 over ISA would not be much faster than USB 1.1 , as far as I understand it, if the effective throughput of ISA disk controllers is any indication .

As for usage scenarios :

a) storage : an IDE CF card reader will be as fast or faster and much cheaper
b) keyboard and mouse : on a computer whose USB ports are not supported by the BIOS for legacy compatibility, you would not even be able to access CMOS setup on a USB keyboard and would require Conventiinal memory consuming TSRs for DOS support . PS/2 keyboards are common, cheap and more compatible
c) WIFI or Ethernet: would likely be unusable under DOS without extensive driver writing . USB WIFI cards available with Windows 9x support do not have support for modern security protocols and ISA Ethernet cards are easy to find . A modern Ethernet to WIFI bridge can allow vintage PCs to connect to modern wireless networks safely.

I don't think you will find many people wanting to connect their phone to that old a PC . Additionally, that would likely require MTP support, which is not available inder Windows 9x, AFAIK (might work under XP, not sure).

IMHO, an ISA USB adapter is a "solution" in search of a problem, for the most part. There are usually cheaper and faster/better to do things on a retro PC and if you run out of PCI or ISA slots, there are expansion chassis that can add some without requiring extensive driver writing . In fact, I would go as far to say that affordable community made PCI or ISA expansion chassis would be much more useful than ISA USB cards .

That is not to say that developping an ISA USB interface could not be a fun project for a qualified person. It's just that I don'believe it would be very practical for most people.

Just my 2 cents worth of an opinion.

darry wrote on 2021-01-27, 21:26:

USB 2.0 over ISA would not be much faster than USB 1.1 , as far as I understand it, if the effective throughput of ISA disk cont […]
Show full quote

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-01-27, 20:55:

Deksor wrote on 2021-01-27, 19:03:

if speed isn't a problem (since you want this for ISA) why not using a USB hub to multiply the USB ports ?

I was waiting for someone to say this. 🤣 very valid point they are usb 1.x ports back in the day when using them they were great for keyboard and mouse but windows complained about them a lot with other things and I do believe they are slower than isa. like, a lot slower. so isa would allow for a lot faster with usb 2.0. also this thread isn't just about me, lots of people would like to have one who aren't lucky enough to have a tx or hx chipset or 5 pci slots

USB 2.0 over ISA would not be much faster than USB 1.1 , as far as I understand it, if the effective throughput of ISA disk controllers is any indication .

As for usage scenarios :

a) storage : an IDE CF card reader will be as fast or faster and much cheaper
b) keyboard and mouse : on a computer whose USB ports are not supported by the BIOS for legacy compatibility, you would not even be able to access CMOS setup on a USB keyboard and would require Conventiinal memory consuming TSRs for DOS support . PS/2 keyboards are common, cheap and more compatible
c) WIFI or Ethernet: would likely be unusable under DOS without extensive driver writing . USB WIFI cards available with Windows 9x support do not have support for modern security protocols and ISA Ethernet cards are easy to find . A modern Ethernet to WIFI bridge can allow vintage PCs to connect to modern wireless networks safely.

I don't think you will find many people wanting to connect their phone to that old a PC . Additionally, that would likely require MTP support, which is not available inder Windows 9x, AFAIK (might work under XP, not sure).

IMHO, an ISA USB adapter is a "solution" in search of a problem, for the most part. There are usually cheaper and faster/better to do things on a retro PC and if you run out of PCI or ISA slots, there are expansion chassis that can add some without requiring extensive driver writing . In fact, I would go as far to say that affordable community made PCI or ISA expansion chassis would be much more useful than ISA USB cards .

That is not to say that developping an ISA USB interface could not be a fun project for a qualified person. It's just that I don'believe it would be very practical for most people.

Just my 2 cents worth of an opinion.

yes, yes, all valid points. though the thought that usb2.0 wouldn't be faster than 1.x on isa is a surprise to me but I defer to your experience on that. If we were all after what makes the most sense and is easiest we would buy new hardware and new games. our hobby is as much about the build as it is about the result, maybe more so the former in my case. 🤣. I like neat and oddball solutions.

like that Orpheus soundcard I absolutely love because someone took the time to take the best qualities of a bunch of old stuff and make a brand new Frankenstein out of it I'm itching to buy one if only I can figure out how to make it work in later versions of windows

we should have more people making cards for projects and sharing files and ideas and whatnot

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-01-28, 00:37:

yes, yes, all valid points. though the thought that usb2.0 wouldn't be faster than 1.x on isa is a surprise to me but I defer to […]
Show full quote

darry wrote on 2021-01-27, 21:26:

USB 2.0 over ISA would not be much faster than USB 1.1 , as far as I understand it, if the effective throughput of ISA disk cont […]
Show full quote

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-01-27, 20:55:

I was waiting for someone to say this. 🤣 very valid point they are usb 1.x ports back in the day when using them they were great for keyboard and mouse but windows complained about them a lot with other things and I do believe they are slower than isa. like, a lot slower. so isa would allow for a lot faster with usb 2.0. also this thread isn't just about me, lots of people would like to have one who aren't lucky enough to have a tx or hx chipset or 5 pci slots

USB 2.0 over ISA would not be much faster than USB 1.1 , as far as I understand it, if the effective throughput of ISA disk controllers is any indication .

As for usage scenarios :

a) storage : an IDE CF card reader will be as fast or faster and much cheaper
b) keyboard and mouse : on a computer whose USB ports are not supported by the BIOS for legacy compatibility, you would not even be able to access CMOS setup on a USB keyboard and would require Conventiinal memory consuming TSRs for DOS support . PS/2 keyboards are common, cheap and more compatible
c) WIFI or Ethernet: would likely be unusable under DOS without extensive driver writing . USB WIFI cards available with Windows 9x support do not have support for modern security protocols and ISA Ethernet cards are easy to find . A modern Ethernet to WIFI bridge can allow vintage PCs to connect to modern wireless networks safely.

I don't think you will find many people wanting to connect their phone to that old a PC . Additionally, that would likely require MTP support, which is not available inder Windows 9x, AFAIK (might work under XP, not sure).

IMHO, an ISA USB adapter is a "solution" in search of a problem, for the most part. There are usually cheaper and faster/better to do things on a retro PC and if you run out of PCI or ISA slots, there are expansion chassis that can add some without requiring extensive driver writing . In fact, I would go as far to say that affordable community made PCI or ISA expansion chassis would be much more useful than ISA USB cards .

That is not to say that developping an ISA USB interface could not be a fun project for a qualified person. It's just that I don'believe it would be very practical for most people.

Just my 2 cents worth of an opinion.

yes, yes, all valid points. though the thought that usb2.0 wouldn't be faster than 1.x on isa is a surprise to me but I defer to your experience on that. If we were all after what makes the most sense and is easiest we would buy new hardware and new games. our hobby is as much about the build as it is about the result, maybe more so the former in my case. 🤣. I like neat and oddball solutions.

like that Orpheus soundcard I absolutely love because someone took the time to take the best qualities of a bunch of old stuff and make a brand new Frankenstein out of it I'm itching to buy one if only I can figure out how to make it work in later versions of windows

we should have more people making cards for projects and sharing files and ideas and whatnot

USB 1.1 is limited to 11 megabits per second . USB 2.0 can do 480 megabits per second . These are raw data rates and include overhead, (effective throughput is lower)AFAIK .
The problem is that ISA bus throughput is very slow. We are talking about 2 to 2.5ish megabytes per second total for all devices, which translates to 16 to 20 megabits per second . So USB 2.0's high speed mode would be severely bottlenecked by ISA . Source : http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?564 … d-transfer-rate (there are other references that quote similar numbers).

The Orpheus is indeed great and projects like it are really wonderful . Have a look at this list : The comprehensive list of all modern reproductions of vintage sound cards and and at https://www.serdashop.com/ for more fantastic projects/products .

As for getting Orpheus working in newer versions of Windows, I don't see the need if one has multiple sound cards installed . IMHO, they don't all need to work in every operating system that you may have installed in a given machine . Orpheus works perfectly under DOS and can run under Windows 9x with one limitation (only OPL3 integrated into CS4237 can be used). Under operating systems such as Windows 2000, Windows XP and Windows 7, there is no real advantage to having (no problem with it being installed but unused in a given OS) an ISA sound card anyway, so might as well use something more appropriate with hardware DirectSound support and EAX (or A3D) .

EDIT: Corrected typos

There are PCI cards that combine USB and IDE/SATA controllers on a single card.
They probably still won't allow you to boot off of their USB ports but if the point is conserving slots on your mobo this may be an alternative solution until you find someone willing to create an ISA USB adapter.
A card like that would also allow for much better USB performance since it wouldn't be bottlenecked by the ISA bus.
I also assume creating an option ROM for USB boot and HID support under DOS is more feasible when using an avaliable and documented PCI-USB controller chip compared to a diy ISA-USB solution.

I know this is not what you asked for in this thread but those cards already exist so they may be an intermediary solution to your problem until someday somebody creates a decent ISA USB controller.

Doornkaat wrote on 2021-01-28, 06:39:

There are PCI cards that combine USB and IDE/SATA controllers on a single card. They probably still won't allow you to boot off […]
Show full quote

There are PCI cards that combine USB and IDE/SATA controllers on a single card.
They probably still won't allow you to boot off of their USB ports but if the point is conserving slots on your mobo this may be an alternative solution until you find someone willing to create an ISA USB adapter.
A card like that would also allow for much better USB performance since it wouldn't be bottlenecked by the ISA bus.
I also assume creating an option ROM for USB boot and HID support under DOS is more feasible when using an avaliable and documented PCI-USB controller chip compared to a diy ISA-USB solution.

I know this is not what you asked for in this thread but those cards already exist so they may be an intermediary solution to your problem until someday somebody creates a decent ISA USB controller.

I saw those, very good idea! but I read that the via chipsets that they use are very buggy? lots of people having problems with them? people reporting many bsods and corrupt data written to hdd

I found this, if it came with a internal cable and a second internal out it would be perfect (for my needs, though slow cause using internal 1.x). but "as it is" it's kind of a "swing and a near hit". only real thing it does for me is avoids a external hub but doesn't avoid the external wire or help people with no usb.

There are also these but not being on a bracket is annoying but probably a better option for me would have to 3m tape them somewhere which I think is sloppy personally https://www.ebay.com/itm/Internal-9-Pin-USB-2 … 2b050%7Ciid%3A1

oh well. you guys have been awesome but it sounds like this one won't happen the way I'd hoped. you all rock thanks again! 😀

lots of good alternative suggestions.

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-01-28, 08:27:

I saw those, very good idea! but I read that the via chipsets that they use are very buggy? lots of people having problems with them? people reporting many bsods and corrupt data written to hdd

It seems there are some that have problems with it and others don't. I would recommend trying it out on your specific system since I suppose that to be specific incompatibilities.

I found one of these a while back. It lets me attach USB storage to the ISA bus without any TSRs or drivers.

It's quirky:

• Doesn't work with some of the newer USB 3.0 devices
• Seems to works at the file system level. The USB drive needs to be partitioned & formatted fat or fat32 before inserting, each USB partition looks like a separate physical drive.
• Not as fast as the SD or CF adapters, maybe because it works at the file system level
• No hot swap. Only swap drives when powered down
• It is possible to put the power plug in backwards, which traumatically releases the magic smoke from the USB device
• Pretty sure it fried a USB device when I had the plug in correctly and didn't hot swap devices

https://www.cprtools.com/products/accessories/

There is some data on the Epson S1R72U16 chip here:
https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=13& … =31086&start=40

douglar wrote on 2021-02-02, 13:05:

I found one of these a while back. It lets me attach USB storage to the ISA bus without any TSRs or drivers. […]
Show full quote

I found one of these a while back. It lets me attach USB storage to the ISA bus without any TSRs or drivers.

It's quirky:

• Doesn't work with some of the newer USB 3.0 devices
• Seems to works at the file system level. The USB drive needs to be partitioned & formatted fat or fat32 before inserting.
• Not as fast as the SD or CF adapters, maybe because it works at the file system level
• No hot swap. Only swap drives when powered down
• It is possible to put the power plug in backwards, which traumatically releases the magic smoke from the USB device
• Pretty sure it fried a USB device when I had the plug in correctly and didn't hot swap devices

Photo Feb 02, 7 50 25 AM.jpg

Photo Feb 02, 7 50 17 AM.jpg

https://www.cprtools.com/products/accessories/

There is some data on the Epson S1R72U16 chip here:
https://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=13& … =31086&start=40

Quirky little device . If not for the shortcomings that you mentioned (especially the lack of hotswap and that last one), it would make a nice data transfer solution for not only ISA based systems, but also any IDE slower/older system with IDE connectors .

Thank you for sharing .