Hi, yes.

Some programs can use EMS, which makes them use less conventional memory.

Some motherboard chipsets do feature EMS, but also can repurpose the EMS page frame (the EMS "window") as a 64KB UMB.

UMBs are also available in a PC/XT system.
However, it often requires installing a physical RAM board that makes memory in the 640 to 1MB tange available.

Such a card looks like this, for example :

Source: Re: 80x86/Vxx PC emulators with x87, EMS, UMBs and no artificial 640KiB limit ?

Alternatively, you can use that 1MB card from Lo-Tech..

Last, but not least, a genuine Hercules board can be used to make 64KB available.

Edit : Umbherc.sys requirements ?

If the system uses CGA graphics only, conventional memory can be increased up to 736KB.
Often without much trickery, by the way.
That setup was quite common in the mid-80s, before EGA/VGA got in the way. 😀

Jo22 wrote on 2021-03-03, 21:30:

Hi, yes. […]
Show full quote

Hi, yes.

Some programs can use EMS, which makes them use less conventional memory.

Some motherboard chipsets do feature EMS, but also can repurpose the EMS page frame (the EMS "window") as a 64KB UMB.

UMBs are also available in a PC/XT system.
However, it often requires installing a physical RAM board that makes memory in the 640 to 1MB tange available.

Such a card looks like this, for example :
ct1.jpg

Source: Re: 80x86/Vxx PC emulators with x87, EMS, UMBs and no artificial 640KiB limit ?

Alternatively, you can use that 1MB card from Lo-Tech..

Last, but not least, a genuine Hercules board can be used to make 64KB available.

Edit : Umbherc.sys requirements ?

If the system uses CGA graphics only, conventional memory can be increased up to 736KB.
Often without much trickery, by the way.
That setup was quite common in the mid-80s, before EGA/VGA got in the way. 😀

Unfortunately I can't do those things as I'm not using a PC with options like add-on boards and hercules cards etc 😉

I'm using a HP 200 LX palmtop with MS-DOS 5.0 on it (although I do have a directory with most MS-DOS 6.22 executables in it)
It's got 2MB ram, 640KB conventional MS-DOS RAM, etc...
and it's got a 1.2MB ram drive.
I'm using a specific tool (a config.sys device driver) for the LX that creates expanded memory in MS-DOS,
from a data/swap file on the ramdrive of the palmtop.
I created a 1 MB data file for it and now, the output of the mem command is 640KB conventional memory with about ~580KB of it available,
and 1MB of expanded memory, ready for use.
The system has a 80186 CPU (equiv to a 8086) and uses standard CGA graphics...

Are you aware of any software tools or trickery so i can increase my conventional memory to be more than ~580, by using the expanded memory that's available ???

Thanks,
Terrence

radiance32 wrote on 2021-03-04, 00:50:

Are you aware of any software tools or trickery so i can increase my conventional memory to be more than ~580, by using the expanded memory that's available ???

Thanks,
Terrence

Hi Terrence! I see, makes sense. You can try out "The Last Byte Memory Manager".
It turns the EMS page frame into an UMB, so you can load drivers high.

Re: Headland HT12/A 286 chipset: UMB driver?

Not sure if it is compatible with your handheld, though.

I tried The Last Byte on a 286 once, but it has been a while. 😅
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9KrPNis-Q

Good luck! ^^

The best cards to use for this support EEMS or LIM 4.0. They support page frames larger than 64kb, and in the case of EEMS (used on AST products) they don't have to be contiguous. It's also possible to configure these cards to do EMS and provide UMB RAM simulaneously.
There are utilities available from Quarterdeck that let you load all kinds of stuff into UMB, including most of DOS. Using some tricks I was able to free up most of the 640k with all my drivers loaded.

Jo22 wrote on 2021-03-04, 05:02:

Hi Terrence! I see, makes sense. You can try out "The Last Byte Memory Manager". It turns the EMS page frame into an UMB, so you […]
Show full quote

radiance32 wrote on 2021-03-04, 00:50:

Are you aware of any software tools or trickery so i can increase my conventional memory to be more than ~580, by using the expanded memory that's available ???

Thanks,
Terrence

Hi Terrence! I see, makes sense. You can try out "The Last Byte Memory Manager".
It turns the EMS page frame into an UMB, so you can load drivers high.

Re: Headland HT12/A 286 chipset: UMB driver?

Not sure if it is compatible with your handheld, though.

I tried The Last Byte on a 286 once, but it has been a while. 😅
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lr9KrPNis-Q

Good luck! ^^

Thanks, it's stuff like this I was looking for 😀
I'll try it out tomorrow 😀

Cheers,
Terrence

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2021-03-04, 07:04:

The best cards to use for this support EEMS or LIM 4.0. They support page frames larger than 64kb, and in the case of EEMS (used on AST products) they don't have to be contiguous. It's also possible to configure these cards to do EMS and provide UMB RAM simulaneously.
There are utilities available from Quarterdeck that let you load all kinds of stuff into UMB, including most of DOS. Using some tricks I was able to free up most of the 640k with all my drivers loaded.

Please read about my setup in my 2nd post, I'm not using a PC with EMS add-on boards,
but a HP 200LX Palmtop with virtual expanded memory using a data/swap-file...

Anyways, I'm looking for ways to load dos, drivers and TSR's etc... into expanded memory... using tricks and/or software...

Terrence

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2021-03-04, 07:04:

The best cards to use for this support EEMS or LIM 4.0. They support page frames larger than 64kb, and in the case of EEMS (used on AST products) they don't have to be contiguous. It's also possible to configure these cards to do EMS and provide UMB RAM simulaneously.
There are utilities available from Quarterdeck that let you load all kinds of stuff into UMB, including most of DOS. Using some tricks I was able to free up most of the 640k with all my drivers loaded.

Hi "anonymous coward" 😀 (LOL funny name),

Thanks for your reply,
What are the actual names of the "utilities" you mention from quarterdeck that allow the use of expanded memory for things such as loading drivers and/or DOS into the UMB area, so I can free up conventional memory?
I'd like to see if I can find that software and try out what you mentioned...

Cheers,
Terrence

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2021-03-04, 07:04:

The best cards to use for this support EEMS or LIM 4.0. They support page frames larger than 64kb, and in the case of EEMS (used on AST products) they don't have to be contiguous. It's also possible to configure these cards to do EMS and provide UMB RAM simulaneously.
There are utilities available from Quarterdeck that let you load all kinds of stuff into UMB, including most of DOS. Using some tricks I was able to free up most of the 640k with all my drivers loaded.

Is QRAM the best from Quarterdeck for an 808x system?

I would run a memory address tool to see what actually has memory in the 1mb address range.

Considering you have 2mb of memory it’s possible some of it exists or is addressable without any drivers loaded in the lower 1mb space.

If so you can manually load drivers in whatever free memory blocks that exist and forgo your Ram drive and ems

I wrote a umb.sys for my tandy 1000sx, so I can use umb's and higher ram. EMS eats a lot of ram and not a lot of things actually use EMS. (its good for say norton ncache2). but you can sacrifice ems, get 64kb page frame back and use it for UMB memory.

umb requires dos5 or higher. if your running dos3.3 I wrote some tools to map UMB memory into the low memory chain so you can still use upper memory like normal.

I did this 13 years ago, so I don't remember anymore. But, I documented it on vcfed:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-12685.html

BTW, I am pretty sure somebody discovered a more straightforward way of going about it somewhat later.

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2021-03-08, 02:48:

I did this 13 years ago, so I don't remember anymore. But, I documented it on vcfed:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-12685.html

BTW, I am pretty sure somebody discovered a more straightforward way of going about it somewhat later.

THanks for the link, that's some really good information right there,
i'm gonna give it a go on my 200lx 😉

Terrence

Try DOSMAX. I never got around to testing it out, but it sounds like it might be easier to work with than DOS-UP.SYS

Anonymous Coward wrote on 2021-03-08, 03:16:

Try DOSMAX. I never got around to testing it out, but it sounds like it might be easier to work with than DOS-UP.SYS

I read about dosmax in the manual for the last byte memory manager (which does'nt work on my hp200lx, it requires a real floppy drive to check what memory controller chipset you have, and the 200lx does'nt have a floppy, so it flat out refuses to detect the chipset and install, and i have no clue what kind of chipset it would find, and it probably won't find something it supports as it's not a proper PC with a common motherboard chipset)

I've added dosmax to my (very long) list of stuff to check out 😀

Thanks for the info!,
Terrence