VOGONS


First post, by drybones99

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I'm interested in a mid-1980s DOS PC that can run Windows 1.0 (in color) as well as a good variety of DOS games. The Tandy 1000 SX seemed like a good option, but it's unclear if I can run Windows 1.0 in anything other than black and white. Windows requires EGA, but the 1000 SX only supports CGA out of the box. I could try getting an EGA card, but they're somewhat rare, and I don't even know if one would work in this scenario. Could a VGA card work here? There's also the issue of Tandy Graphics (TGA), which if I'm correct, wouldn't work with an EGA or VGA card installed. Also, what kind of monitor would I need to get? Would the standard Tandy graphics monitor work, or would I need an EGA monitor? Would a VGA monitor also be able to do EGA? I had some other questions which I asked in this Reddit thread, which is here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/com … and_windows_10/

Where should I go from here?

Reply 1 of 6, by FAMICOMASTER

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

If you only want to use such old software, a Tandy 1000 or a Turbo XT of some kind would be a good choice. If you want to be running more Windows applications, look at ATs and Turbo ATs (286 machines). 386s are also fair options, but can run some very old software too fast.

Tandy graphics only work on Tandy machines, just as their sound used to, before it was emulated.

If you get a 286 or 386 you could use a VGA card and literally any VGA monitor made between 1988 and current date. 8-bit VGA cards do exist but they are expensive and rare, iirc. They will all be backwards compatible with CGA/EGA, but obviously no Tandy or Hercules support.

MDA and Hercules use a monochrome TTL monitor which does not have a "Modern" equivalent, since they are entirely digital and work on a frequency which is no longer common. MDA and CGA monitors are not even interchangeable.
CGA and Tandy both use their own connector as well, which is a similar TTL setup that does not have a modern replacement. They are also digital and work on a frequency which is considered odd.
EGA is again, it's own digital connector. However, EGA monitors are backwards compatible with the CGA connector and will display their picture as well. Some EGA cards have VGA outputs (Zenith Z449) but are still just EGA chipsets with the extra connector and DAC for a VGA monitor. Some include special modes (ATi cards) which were rarely used by games.
Obviously there are more standards like PGC and Plantronics which are not worth mentioning for your purposes.

For most people, a VGA card will do all of the above. It can emulate MDA, CGA, and EGA with reasonable accuracy while also providing the improved performance and a more standard output. It also gives you the option of running actual VGA software.
Tseng Labs ET4000 and Trident TVGA8900 series are very common choices for vintage machines, cheap and plentiful they do most of what you'd want from them without complaint.

tl;dr some generic 386SX with a basic VGA card and a CF adapter.

Reply 2 of 6, by Caluser2000

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Personally I think using MS Windows 1.0 is just silly. Practicably everybody in the industry laughed at it at the time.

I run GeoWorks Pro on my 1987 XT-Turbo system with EGA moniter. Supports a large variety of video outputs.

Attachments

  • 20210607_085935.jpg
    Filename
    20210607_085935.jpg
    File size
    373.38 KiB
    Views
    354 views
    File license
    Fair use/fair dealing exception
Last edited by Caluser2000 on 2021-06-09, 06:13. Edited 3 times in total.

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 3 of 6, by FAMICOMASTER

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Agreed. 1.x is a joke, and most people didn't seem to care about 2.x either. 3.x is where Windows started to pick up finally, but most Turbo XTs and ATs will run 3.0 pretty acceptably.

Reply 4 of 6, by drybones99

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

So would a Tandy 1000 SX with a VGA card and a VGA monitor be a good option for me, then? I believe that's a 286, though. Also by CF adapter, did you mean a Compact Flash adapter for storage? You also said that 8-bit VGA cards are hard to come by, but then you went on to recommend a VGA card. Were you recommending a 16-bit VGA card? You said that a 386 might be too fast for certain applications, but you went on to recommend it. Maybe it's not that big of a deal? Also, if I went with a Tandy 1000 SX, I would still like the option to use Tandy Graphics, perhaps by removing the graphics card, but don't I need a TGA-compatable monitor for that? Are there any such monitors that support VGA as well? I'm still new to all of this, so I'm just trying to understand. I've collected old computers before, but until now, it's been nothing but old Macs as well as an Apple Lisa 2, an Apple //e and a Commodore 64. This would be my first old DOS PC. Also, the reason I was interested in running Windows 1.0 was just for the historical aspect. Ultimately, I want to be able to run every single version of Windows (on period-appropriate hardware) from then up until Windows 10, which I'm currently running on my modern PC. Think of it as a Windows-museum of sorts. I also wanted to be able to run early to mid-80s DOS applications.

Reply 5 of 6, by FAMICOMASTER

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I don't think the 1000 SX is a 286, was that not still an 8088/V20 machine?

Yes, by CF adapter I mean a CF adapter.

8-Bit VGA cards are very far and few between. I would recommend a 16-bit VGA card which are very easy to get and very cheap with higher performance.
A 386 will be too fast for some games which used the original IBM's timing (4.77MHz), but many manufacturers get around this by implementing a "Turbo" button which drops it down to the speed you choose, allowing it to run more software which may depend on that speed setting.

Yes, you would need a monitor capable of displaying the digital signals from Tandy AND the analog signals of VGA. These are called MultiSync monitors and they can be extremely rare and expensive. Last I checked they cost more than my first car. There are basically no Windows programs which will run on Tandy video, especially not the low res modes.

Unlike Macs of that era, there is nothing stopping you from having two or more installations of Windows on the same machine, especially in the DOS days. During installation it will ask you what directory to install to, just tell it "WIN1" "WIN2" "WIN3" "WIN311" etc. To start them you can go into the appropriate folder and ask for that version of Windows to start.

Reply 6 of 6, by drybones99

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I guess a 1000 SX might not work best for me, then, as I would need two different monitors to take full advantage of its video capabilities. Maybe a 386 with a turbo button would work, along with a 16-bit VGA card and VGA monitor? In that case, which 386 machines would you recommend for me, or would a 286 be better? It would definitely be nice to be able to run Windows 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, and 3.1 all on the same machine.